Leap Attack feat & Monsters?

FoxWander said:

Such as... Could you give me an example of what you mean?

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You need more facts, like which book the feat is in, that it has been errataed, the post-errata wording and the example of a similar effect in the CW errata.

FoxWander said:

I mean, I could've explained the differences in thought- that people read the same thing and all have valid arguments for seeing it as x3, x4, or even x6 the amount subtracted from the attack roll, but that would've just confused the issue to them as well. For the purpose of knowing an 'official' answer they don't need to see the different ways people are confused on the issue, they just need to tell me the answer to my question so we know what is intended by the feat.

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What makes you think the answer some random guy from Custserv gives after skimming through the feat (if he can find it) is the "intent"?! In order to give an even remotely meaningful answer they need to know what the problem is, or they'll just go with their off-the-cuff impression. The best you can hope for with Custserv is to confuse them enough that they consult the people who may have a clue about the intent; the game designers in R&D. (Though that hardly ever happens.)

FoxWander said:

I'd be happy to submit a more lengthy question, though, if you'll let me know what you'd like it to include.

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I'd wait and see if I got a reply, then ask for clarification. With any luck they'll include some sort of reasoning behind their answer. Better, yet, I'd ask Andy Collins, The Sage. He wasn't directly involved with CAdv, but he's more likely to have a clue than Custserv.

If I were to ask this question I'd write something like this:

***
Hi

I have a question about the Leap Attack feat (Complete Adventurer page 110) and how it works for a character wielding a two-handed weapon.

The feat was changed as follows in the Complete Adventurer errata:

"The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."

The feat now reads:

"You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack." -- Leap Attack feat.

If not for that last sentence I could have used the example from the Complete Warrior errata on the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack ability, which is worded almost exactly the same way:

"Page 36: Frenzied Berserker’s Supreme Power Attack (class feature)
The supreme power attack class feature should read as follows:
Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls."


This is simple enough. (+100% = 4 for 1 rather than 2 for 1) Unfortunately the third sentence of the Leap Attack feat, which covers two-handed weapons, was not removed in the errata. This complicates the matter.


Question 1: Is the third sentence ("... triple the extra damage from power Attack") supposed to be in the feat?

Question 2: If yes, what is "the extra damage from Power Attack" with a two-handed weapon?

Question 3: Is "the extra damage from Power Attack" with a two-handed weapon (Leap Attack) the same value as "the number subtracted from your attack rolls" with Power Attack, thus triggering DnD multiplication rules? (2x * 3x = 4x)

Question 4 (the main question): A character with a greataxe, a two-handed weapon, charges using Leap Attack and subtracts 5 from his attack roll with Power Attack.

How much damage does he do with Leap Attack. 15? 20? 30? Other?

Thanks in advance.
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Yes, it's kind of long. But if I got answers to the three first questions I'd have a pretty good idea why I got the answer I did to the last one, which is more important than some simple "yes" "no" or "3.14" answer.

Well you were right, Iku Rex. I already got a reply and while it was a good response, it also doesn't cover ALL the problems. So I'm trying again with a more specific, detailed reply. Here's the answer I got and the response I'm sending.

WOTC CustServ said:

There is some errata for this up on our website, but even with that, leap attack can be confusing. So normally when you power attack with a two handed weapon, you add 2 points of damage for every 1 point that you subtract from your attack. With the errata, leap attack increases the amount of damage you do from power attack by another 100 percent. Your character subtracted 4, which would bring the normal power attack to 8. If you apply the 100 percent increase at this point, the damage gets bumped up to 16. I hope this clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!

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See- a good response, but like Iku Rex said- I wasn't detailed enough, so here's my reply. BTW- I keep mentioning my gaming group in dealing with CustServ because that's what originally prompted me to come on here looking for Leap Attack clarification. This actually is an issue in our game right now.

My reply to CustServ said:

First off, thanks for the quick reply. Your answer does help... some: in that, I think that's what the INTENT of the errata was. However, since the errata says "The SECOND sentence of the benefit paragraph should read as follows: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat."

The THIRD sentence, with the "triple the extra damage" wording is still there- and that's where our confusion comes in. Now the feat, with errata, reads: "You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack."

If not for that last sentence, I think the feat would work fine. But now the implication is that, with a two-handed weapon, you get 2-for-1 damage due to power attack, which is then tripled due to leap attack. So in my example of a 4-point power attack, leap attack can be read to give you a +24 to damage?! I know it's ridiculous, but it's a valid way to read the feat- even with the errata.

Or is the intent to use the D&D multiple multiplication rule, so the x2 (power attack) and the x3 (leap attack) yields a x4? Which would result in the same effect as the errata'd feat, WITHOUT the third sentence.

Sorry for the complicated reply, but one of the guys in my group is building a character around leap attack and I don't want it to get the rest of the group killed because the DM will have to throw much stronger foes against us to deal with his (I think) over-powered use of the feat. While your reply actually mirrors what I think the feat should do, unfortunately the errata did not remove the last sentence. And with it there, I can't help but see my friend's argument for the double then triple effect as equally valid.

So here are the specifics things we need answered:
Question 1: Is the third sentence ("... triple the extra damage from power Attack") supposed to be in the feat?

Question 2: If yes, what is "the extra damage from Power Attack" (that leap attack refers to) when using a two-handed weapon?

Question 3: Is "the extra damage from Power Attack" with a two-handed weapon (Leap Attack) the same value as "the number subtracted from your attack rolls" with Power Attack, thus triggering DnD multiplication rules? (2x * 3x = 4x) Or is it the already doubled amount of a two-handed power attack, which is then tripled from leap attack?

Question 4 (the main question): A character with a greatsword charges using Leap Attack and subtracts 5 from his attack roll with Power Attack. How much damage does he do with Leap Attack. 15? 20? 30? Other?

Thanks in advance.

P.S.- This feat is also being discussed on ENWorld, where others are awaiting your answer as well.

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We'll see what this gets us. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Got a reply back already. It seems the errata WAS supposed to get rid of the third sentence, making the feat match the Frenzied Berserker Supreme Power Attack ability. Which makes it much easier to understand and apply. Whether it's balanced or not, is for you to decide, but it'll work for me and my group.

For the record, here's the response. Hopefully they'll update the errata soon and clear this up for everyone.

WOTC CustServ said:

You are correct that the errata does not state that it replaces the third and other sentences as well, but I have spoken with the group of guys that make the game, and that is what they meant for the errata to do. They do intend to change that errata at some point, but unfortunately it hasn't been updated yet. So again, you would want to apply the feat just as I said before, or make up some house rule that fits your campaign better. Good gaming!

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So- at least this should clear things up concerning the original question (and make my first response to this thread actually accurate). Take whatever the creature's normal power attack damage would be and apply it again.

Ah. Excellent.

Good work by CustServ. Maybe they are getting better.

Thank you for your efforts FoxWander.