Abilities with Prerequisites & taking the prerequisites at the same time?

starwed said:

Note that there's actually a different order for stuff you gain at 1st level (allowing you to take feats which have class abilities as prereqs.) But if you took your first level of cleric at level 3, you couldn't' take a divine feat at that level because you gain the ability to turn undead after you select your feats.

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Although "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite" argues otherwise

-Hyp.

I can't help but notice, and have been pointing out periodically throughout 3E's existence, that the rule in question doesn't actually say you have to follow the steps in order. Many people take it that way, and at one point I think even the then-Sage was one of them, but the RAW are entirely silent on this point. I interpret that, along with the occasional passage such as Hypersmurf just quoted, to allow you to do the steps in any order that doesn't actually create a paradox, and in my game, my house rules explicitly state as much (I don't think this is actually a house rule, but that makes it unambiguous).

(What would be paradoxical? Say you want a Prestige Class that requires a BAB of +6, and you only have +5. I would not allow you to take the first level of that prestige class on the strength of the class' own base attack bonus, because that would mean using something you got as a consequence of entering the class to meet the prerequisites you had to meet before entering it. On the other hand, Feats and ability score bumps are a matter of overall level and don't care what class you just took your level in. So you could take a Feat that requires a class ability you just gained, or take a PrC that requires a Feat you just gained - but not both at the same time.)

jeffh said:

I can't help but notice, and have been pointing out periodically throughout 3E's existence, that the rule in question doesn't actually say you have to follow the steps in order. ...

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It is a numbered list, which implies that have to be done in order. A bulleted list would not imply that.

But, in truth, it is only implied and not clearly stated.

I advise you to ignore this person. They have no idea what they are talking about and are clearly just grinding some axe to prove that the Book of 9 Swords is broken or hates it and wants to ruin it for you.

You of course can take prereqs along with other manuvers. Otherwise, a swordsage, who knows 6 freakin' manuvers at first level would not even be able to spend all of them, except taking garbage for 6 different schools. The whole point is you pick like 3 schools and stick to them.

For instance, Tiger's leap is a level 1 manuver, but it requires you to know another tigerclaw manuver. How dumb would it be to have a level 1 manuver you cannot learn even if you have its prereq along with it?

Artoomis said:

It is a numbered list, which implies that have to be done in order. A bulleted list would not imply that.

But, in truth, it is only implied and not clearly stated.

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I can sort of, but only sort of, see where the numbering would create that impression. The implication seems less clear to me than it evidently does to you, especially since, as Hypersmurf and others have mentioned, there are other places that contradict this reading. It's at least ambiguous on any reasonable reading, I think.

jeffh said:

So you could take a Feat that requires a class ability you just gained, or take a PrC that requires a Feat you just gained - but not both at the same time.)

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I must admit, I wouldn't allow you to take a PrC that had a feat as a prerequisite unless you already had that feat.

You get the feat when you attain character level 6, for example. But you can't be a 6th level character who is a Ftr5/[Undecided]1; you have to take a level in a class to be 6th level, so you don't get the feat (gained for being 6th level) until you are 6th level, which means you have to have chosen the class already.

-Hyp.

jeffh said:

It's at least ambiguous on any reasonable reading, I think.

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But since it is ambiguous and the Sage confirmed that it is meant to be sequential, shouldn't that be enough to consider the matter settled? You're still free to ignore what he says in your own campaign if you disagree with what he says, but it's hard to dismiss him entirely. I mean, like him or not, the Sage is WotC's officially recognized voice on RAW interpretations.

jeffh said:

(What would be paradoxical? Say you want a Prestige Class that requires a BAB of +6, and you only have +5. I would not allow you to take the first level of that prestige class on the strength of the class' own base attack bonus, because that would mean using something you got as a consequence of entering the class to meet the prerequisites you had to meet before entering it. On the other hand, Feats and ability score bumps are a matter of overall level and don't care what class you just took your level in. So you could take a Feat that requires a class ability you just gained, or take a PrC that requires a Feat you just gained - but not both at the same time.)

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The SRD is pretty clear on entry into Prestige Classes

Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

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pg 176 of the DMG contains an example.

Ambrus said:

But since it is ambiguous and the Sage confirmed that it is meant to be sequential, shouldn't that be enough to consider the matter settled? You're still free to ignore what he says in your own campaign if you disagree with what he says, but it's hard to dismiss him entirely. I mean, like him or not, the Sage is WotC's officially recognized voice on RAW interpretations.

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The Sage, especially when it was Skip, gives enough answers that are clearly wrong by the RAW, outside his authority as I understand it (essentially making up new rules), or just plain nuts that I can't regard him as authoritative. And, as you sort of say, what is "official" according to WotC is still, at best, well-informed advice with regard to how I run my campaign. I take it into consideration but it's hardly the be-all and end-all.

Ok, I'm getting confused here. I thought I knew how to handle this, and this thread totally mixed up my understanding of the rules.

What do we have:
1. Feats that require BAB.
2. Feats that require Class features
3. PrC's that require BAB
4. PrC's that require Class features
5. PrC's that require Feats.

So, upon gaining a new level, can I:
1. Take a feat that requires the BAB I just gained.
2. Take a feat that requires a class feature I just gained.
3. Take a PrC that requires the BAB I just gained.(Ok, this one has been answered: NO)
4. Take a PrC that requires a Class feature I just gained.(This one's silly. NO)
5. Take a PrC that requires a Feat I just gained.

Apart from 3 and 4, we are left with:

If I want to take a PrC that requires a Feat that requires a BAB I get upon taking the PrC, can I take it?
That one's silly too. NO. So, what can I take and what not?

Herzog