Rules that never made sense to you?

moritheil said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. From 1-10, AC increase is astronomically higher than to-hit increase (assuming you optimize AC via spells/abilities/feats and there are no items of permanent True Strike or the like. Making a 1st-level character with AC 40 is pretty tough, but a 6th-level character can easily have AC 60+ for four combats/day.)

Click to expand...

60+? Easily?

You'll have to explain that to support this POV.

Hypersmurf said:

Let's say that instead of "Move into your opponent's space - this does not count against your movement for the round", step 4 instead said "Move into your opponent's space as a move action".

Would you consider that in this case, step 4 could only be performed if the character had a move action available? Or would you consider that the character could stand from prone (move action), initiate a grapple by taking the attack action (standard action), and then move into the opponent's space (second move action)?

To me, that wording would suggest that the character can only take a move action to complete step 4 if he has a move action available; similarly, the character can only take the free action to establish a hold if he has a free action available.

-Hyp.

Click to expand...

I don't think so... that is, "Move into your opponent's space as a move action," says that a move action must occur. I think it would create an ambiguity. The action must occur, but it hasn't been spelled out that you must have that kind of action, or that the action can somehow fail to occur.

Besides which, going back to the issue of the grapple, even if the action were a free action in every respect, the referenced rule could be an exception to the usual restrictions as to when a free action may occur. That is how I read it: This action, like other free actions but unlike standard or move actions, does not take a standard or move action and occurs instantly.

Strictly by the rules, attack actions, in general, are described as actions you may choose to take on your turn. but no one is suggesting that AoOs are technically illegal, and I don't see this to be a different case.

pemerton said:

The first is, is grapple so much more strong than the other permitted attack actions that it needs to be limited in this manner? In particular, would any harm to balance be caused by subsituting "immediate" for "free" in the characterisation of the action whereby one establishes a hold (I hope I've nominated the right adjective!)?

Click to expand...

I think so, no other combat manuever takes away the dex bonus.

This reading of the way readies and AoO operate save PC's lives and the player's fun in the long run. Notably against large creatures with improved grab. Improved grab is nasty enough, the fact that activating it after a hit is a free action itself, IMHO is one of the balancing factors of the ability. Thus the combatant who eats the AoO so he can get a swing in is not pulled into grapple.

A monster with improved grab is entitled to move once an improved grab begins, being able to pull someone into grapple befor it's turn begins can easily make the situation all the worse for the PCs as now the BHM could double move[possibly withdraw] away from the party.

pawsplay said:

Strictly by the rules, attack actions, in general, are described as actions you may choose to take on your turn. but no one is suggesting that AoOs are technically illegal, and I don't see this to be a different case.

Click to expand...

You don't take an attack action on an AoO; you make a melee attack.

The attack action is a standard action. When taking the attack action, you make a melee (or ranged) attack. But when an AoO is provoked, you don't take the action; you just make the attack.

-Hyp.

KarinsDad said:

60+? Easily?

Click to expand...

My question too.

Sure, it's *possible*. But "easily"? Nope.

My lvl 6 (now 7... just dinged) Cohort can manage an AC in the low 40s with buffs...

where does one find the other 20 AC? ;p

Hypersmurf said:

You don't take an attack action on an AoO; you make a melee attack.

The attack action is a standard action. When taking the attack action, you make a melee (or ranged) attack. But when an AoO is provoked, you don't take the action; you just make the attack.

-Hyp.

Click to expand...

An attack action allows you to make an attack, but additionally, an attack is itself a standard action. See the table for different types of action. Additionally:


STANDARD ACTIONS
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.


Therefore, an AoO allows you to make a standard action, specifically, an attack.

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll.

Further, starting a grapple includes a melee attack roll; an attack does not encompass the actions of grappling and establishing a hold.

IF a grapple requires, but not provide, a free action, THEN a successful hold is not possible as an AoO.

pawsplay said:

IF a grapple requires, but not provide, a free action, THEN a successful hold is not possible as an AoO.

Click to expand...

Precisely.

Any activity that states that it provides an extra free action does so. Any activity that states that a free action is used is not stating that it provides an extra free action.

It does appear that Grapple was designed for within a turn as opposed to outside a turn since it includes a free action.

pawsplay said:

An attack action allows you to make an attack, but additionally, an attack is itself a standard action. See the table for different types of action.

Click to expand...

The standard action listed on the table is the Attack action. (Or, rather, three attack actions - Attack (melee), Attack (unarmed), and Attack (ranged).)

The Attack (melee) action is a standard action that allows you to make a single melee attack. The Attack (unarmed) action is a standard action that allows you to make a single unarmed attack. The Attack (ranged) action is a standard action that allows you to make a single ranged attack.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.

Click to expand...

This is true in the context in which it appears - when using the standard action, Attack.

When using the Full Attack or Charge action, making an attack is a component of a full round action. When taking an AoO, making an attack is something that is not an action.

Within the definition of the standard action, Attack, it is true to say that making an attack is a standard action. Outside of that context, it is not.

-Hyp.

two said:

I'm interested in hearing about D&D rules that people play with...but which really make no sense to them.

Click to expand...

I hate all the Spellbook rules, they really make no sense at all since their starting idea (wizard "known" spells are what is written in their personal book). The cost of extra spells being tied to "special ink" is utter that only makes things worse.

I also dislike the rules for banned schools (within the School Specialization rules). It makes no sense to me that this is the only case of a character NEVER be able to learn a certain thing, without this limitation being a matter of faith or oath.

I dislike how Cleave can be used on not-adjacent targets, which is against the original sense of cleaving.

I dislike other rules which do make sense, but I'll keep them out of this thread.