Previews for Dungeon 148 and Dragon 357 (July 2007)

In any case, if/when Orcus gets a Demonomicon entry, and assuming I'll be the one to write it... he'll certainly be one of the toughest demons in the series. Which means he's going to be a pretty rough customer indeed.

Razz said:

I think if WotC made Epic material more core, this wouldn't be such a debate here. Actually, it is in the DMG and even the SRD...but WotC seems to have forgotten all about the Epic rules. They're hurting themselves considerably by forgetting that. So many avenues and parts of the game they could be exploring both on a fluff and crunch level, but they're limiting themselves to a 20-level game.

Click to expand...

Actually... according to market research (and supported by my own experience over the last several years spent working on Dungeon), WotC's doing about the right amount of support for Epic games. The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the vast majority of D&D players lose interest in a campaign well before 20th level. The amount of players interested in epic material (of which I count myself as one) is relatively small. Smaller than psionics fans.

WotC would actually hurt themselves more by devoting more resources to epic material, I fear, since they'd be working harder to produce books that would appeal to a MUCH smaller group of customers.

James Jacobs said:

But then, what about Mystara?

Click to expand...

that brings up a good point right there. Demogorgon and Orcus had stats in OD&D at the same time they had stats in AD&D, and of course these stats were different from each other. which one was official? both, either depending on which version you were playing. it boggles the mind.

Bear in mind, BOZ, that those were two separate games at the time. Both were official because you didn't need to compare the canonity of two different (if related) RPGs.

BOZ said:

that brings up a good point right there. Demogorgon and Orcus had stats in OD&D at the same time they had stats in AD&D, and of course these stats were different from each other. which one was official? both, either depending on which version you were playing. it boggles the mind.

Click to expand...

Not only that, but that Demogorgon dude was a chick in BD&D!

Alzrius said:

Bear in mind, BOZ, that those were two separate games at the time. Both were official because you didn't need to compare the canonity of two different (if related) RPGs.

Click to expand...

And since they were entirely seperate games with completely divergent in-game histories, it makes using certain things from D&D somewhat... awkward... in AD&D/3.x. Draedens and Umbral Blots I'm looking at you. It makes things interesting, both in the good way and the Chinese curse manner.

Shemeska said:

Krust,

Click to expand...

Hey Shemeska!

Shemeska said:

Not everyone believes that everything should be firmly statted out, catagorized and defined in some absolute hierarchy of power. Not everything does, or even should, operate on the same scale as everything else, nor should they all necessarily be judged by the same criteria.

Click to expand...

Well they were all judged under the same criteria in 1st Ed. D&D (their original incarnations) so your argument is purely subjective.

Shemeska said:

A CR 8000 Lynkhab versus a CR 7548 Yeenoghu or even a rather than a CR5000 quark-matter skinned fiendish aboleth from layer 3856 of the Abyss would be a nightmare of chapters worth of statblocks,

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but thats just utter nonsense. I statted a CR 9721 Neutronium Golem in the Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary in a page and a half and that was including the illustration. So this idea that you need a chapter worth of statblocks is a load of baloney.

Added to which no one is asking for a CR 7548 Yeenoghu - because it wouldn't make any sense for that character.

Shemeska said:

and at the same time it limits such beings to only what the numbers provide; gone is the mystery, gone is the atmosphere, and gone is the idea that two abyssal lords are creatures of malevolent chaos because you know right there in chapter 5 and 6 are their stat blocks and everything that they could ever do.

That's antithetical to the play style that some of us have.

Click to expand...

So you didn't buy The Book of Vile Darkness or Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss because it had the stats for these beings? You can't say those were intended as Avatars/Aspect stats because that was a retcon only mentioned in FCII and I suspect was a kneejerk to the criticism they got after FCI.

Shemeska said:

Setting a true and absolute statblock for planar powers, gods, etc is on some level IMO a misguided exercise in futility that ultimately diminshes the beings you're trying to define, or overly define as the case might be.

Click to expand...

But the flipside to that is that not having stat blocks for these beings diminishes your ability to use them in the game, for those people who wish to do so.

Shemeska said:

The notion from FC:I and FC:II of putting out a CR20-30 avatar/aspect of an abyssal lord or similar being, something that has a realistic chance of being used in a majority of games, seems to me to be a good solution because it leaves the upper boundary of that archfiend's power an open question that individual DM's can then choose to define as they see fit within their campaigns, and at the same time that solution doesn't wreck the setting by trying to place a CR21 archfiend over an infinity of CR20 etc minions. We can have our cake and eat it too.

Click to expand...

Thats all well and good, but surely you want a book to appeal to the largest number of people as possible. A small percentage of epic material within a book will hurt no one. Didn't hurt DMG 3.5, wouldn't have hurt FC I or II. They easily could have had stats in the book for one of the Demon Princes done in that manner and that would have solved the problem. Everybody goes home happy. Epic gamers know they are only a small fraction of the market, all they ask for is a small fraction of a book 'for them'.

Hey Shroomy!

Shroomy said:

I don't like using CR to gauge actual power since CR is only a mechanical gauge of how much resources a party of four D&D characters of the appropriate level will exhaust in a one on four combat.

Click to expand...

Then use Effective Class Level (ECL) instead since it is a gauge of individual power.

(Unofficially) I suggest CR = 2/3 ECL

e.g. CR 20 Balor = ECL 30.

Shroomy said:

It works pretty well in that regard, even if it does break down the higher the CR gets.

Click to expand...

Thats because you should use CR x2 = EL +4 instead of CR = EL.

Shroomy said:

However, CR usually does not take into account resources beyond the personal equipment and treasure that the monster would carry around at any given time. I think the control of an Abyssal plane (or even a portion of one like lowly Juibilex) gives you a measure of power that cannot be accounted for in the CR system.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about political power or the direct control over the layer? The latter can certainly be attributed a Challenge Rating once you define its terms.

Hey James!

James Jacobs said:

Elminster and Drizzt have the advantage of only being in one campaign world. As a result, it's easy to set their power level. The demon lords are, in theory, in all D&D campaign worlds (Demogorgon's even appeared in Dragonlance!). And not all campaign worlds have the same power level. A CR 20 monster is a world ender in a lower level campaign (such as Eberron), but a drop in the bucket in a higher level one (such as Forgotten Realms).

Click to expand...

Doesn't Eberron have a bunch of 30-40th-level Rakshasas; the 'Lords of Dust'?

James Jacobs said:

I suppose the best case scenario would be to stat up multiple versions of all the demon lords for the different campaign settings. A CR 23 Demogorgon for Eberron, a CR 32 one for Greyhawk, and a CR 66 one for Forgotten Realms. But then, what about Mystara? Or Planescape? Or Dragonlance? Or Ptolus? Or the infinite number of equally-valid homebrew campaigns?

Click to expand...

I disagree. The best case scenario would be to have one version of Demogorgon that made sense.

Theres no valid reason why Demogorgon should have different stats when he shows up in Greyhawk to when he shows up in Mystara.

James Jacobs said:

I didn't idly pick these numbers. They assume that the tougest standard demon in the Abyss is the CR 20 balor. Are there tougher non-demon lord demons? Sure, but they're unique creatures, advanced demons, or demons with class levels. The argument that since the Monster Manual says balors can advance up to 60 HD and therefore all demon lords need to be tough enough to beat up a legion of 60 HD balors is ridiculous on two counts. First, if there ARE any 60 HD balors, there's probably only one of them. And he's probably a demon lord himself.

Click to expand...

I agree with you on this point, although I personally hate the ideas of demons with class levels.

James Jacobs said:

Second, scaling in D&D is infinite. If there's a 60 HD balor, then why can't there be a 20th level fighter 60 HD balor? You have to pick a ceiling, and the CR 20 balor is mine.

Click to expand...

Just because its theoretically possible to be 500th-level doesn't mean Elminster has to be 500th-level.

James Jacobs said:

A CR 32 Demogorgon won't have a problem handling all those pesky CR 20 balors, and the relatively small number of tougher balors in the Abyss aren't going to work together anyway.

Click to expand...

Lets just hope no Demon Prince has a dozen 10th-level Blackguard Marilith then...oh wait...

James Jacobs said:

And Shroomy's absolutely right. CR is, by and large, an arbitrary number that isn't the result of a mathmatecal formula. It can't be.

Click to expand...

Yes it can. I already outlined how in Grim Tales.

James Jacobs said:

A better way to judge a monster's power is to look at several actual touchstones that actually affect gameplay, such as AC, HD, saving throws, special ability DCs, and average damage. A CR 32 monster with an AC of 50 is pretty much just as tough to a 20th level party as a CR 100 monster with an AC of 500. You're only going to hit 5% of the time in either case.

Click to expand...

Yes but if the CR 32 monster is only averaging about 50 damage a hit and the CR 100 monster is averaging 500 damage per hit, that 20th-level Party are going to last a heck of a lot longer and get far more chances trying to make that 1 in 20 chance against the CR 32 monster.

Or, to imbibe of Return of the Jedi:

LANDO
Yes! I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers CR 32 monsters at point-blank range.

ACKBAR
At that close range, we won't last long against those Star Destroyers CR 32 monsters.

LANDO
We'll last longer then we will against that Death Star CR 100 monster...and we might just take a few of them with us.

James Jacobs said:

In any case, if/when Orcus gets a Demonomicon entry, and assuming I'll be the one to write it... he'll certainly be one of the toughest demons in the series. Which means he's going to be a pretty rough customer indeed.

Click to expand...

Just as long as he's tougher than that push over in BoVD.

Btw Krusty mate, I like your Orcus a lot.