How do Saga skills work?

KarinsDad said:

Actually, feats will grow on trees in 4E.

They will probably average almost one per level.

A 30th level PC in SWSE (assuming SWSE went to 30th level like 4E does) has 26 feats (and 15 Talents). It is extremely likely that 4E will work the same way. 3E has a minimum of 11 feats at 30th level, 4E will most likely have ~26. That's over twice as many.

So no, it is not an extreme case if 4E does the every other level feat system plus normal feats of SWSE. In SWSE, a character gains a feat at every level from 1 to 4 (assuming he does not multiclass).

It will be the extremely COMMON case. Every character, even NPCs, will do this.

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Well, that's overstating things, but only a little. The even-level bonus feats are class abilities in the base classes; the SWSE prestige classes alternate between talents and class features. So a while a Jedi 20 has 17 feats, a Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 8/Jedi Master 5 has 10. But you'll probably pick up most skills at low to mid levels while you're taking base class levels.

Chris_Nightwing said:

Man, I hate when you have psychic powers that mean you know that you'll have to house-rule an as yet unseen system..

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Man, I hate when someone feels the need to project another topic when the one replied to doesn't fit the bill.
SW Saga skill system was being explained, I replied to that. Or did you find something bout 4E skills systems in there somewhere?
No wait, here it was:
Originally Posted by Wolv0rine
While I dislike this system greatly, that part of it right there has soured me on it 110%. If this is even a shadow of the 4E skill system, I foresee writing a new skill system in my future.

I didn't know "If"s needed psychic powers. My bad.

Ranger REG said:

I'm certain you can spend a feat to have x number of skills to be Trained Skills (automatically gaining +5 bonus). Considering the bonus, it should be no more than two.

You really gotta test-drive Star Wars Saga Edition Rule. If not, then stick with what you have and say no more. It's not like WotC is spending your money in the 4e development project (unless you're a shareholder).

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This is true, WotC isn't making me buy anything exactly (this is a commonly touted response, although I think people would be well-served to keep in mind that by releasing an official next edition, in a small way they are doing that by seeding the large bulk of players and groups - the bulk that tends to play the most current version of the game -- with that edition. But that's a side-line comment at best).
But I'm not just a player worrying about my gaming experience with 4E, I'm a player worrying about my gaming experience with 4E and a small-fish developer whose worried about my working relationship with 4E and it's systems upon release. That makes it a bit tricker when considering how the system will rub me.
I've admitted before I haven't played Star Wars Saga (for many reasons; don't have it and can't afford the book(s) atm, don't have/know a STSaga group, not currently into playing in a SW game, etc), and that my comments on it's skill system are based on what I read people tell about it. But it seems very much like a "simplified" system that folds things together and uses a more blunt, take-a-step-back-and-squint approach to skills. Which is drastically opposite my preferences for a skill system.
Now I could, of course, just not go 4E. But I want to like 4E so very much.

drothgery said:

Well, that's overstating things, but only a little. The even-level bonus feats are class abilities in the base classes; the SWSE prestige classes alternate between talents and class features. So a while a Jedi 20 has 17 feats, a Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 8/Jedi Master 5 has 10. But you'll probably pick up most skills at low to mid levels while you're taking base class levels.

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20th level Jedi:
17 feats, 10 talents

Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 8/Jedi Master 5:
10 feats, 11 talents, 4 force secrets, 4 force techniques, 2 special abilities

Note: I am doing this off of memory, so I might be off somewhere.

Last I saw, 31 > 27. So yes, he gave up 7 feats, but he gained 1 talent, 4 force secrets, 4 force techniques, and 2 special abilities. And the feats he gives up are not normal ones which can be nearly anything, they are the class specific ones (to gain other PrC specific abilities).

Going into a PrC gains a lot of extra abilities, it doesn't lose them. And, nobody is forcing the PC to go into these PrCs.

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

Classes that get a lot of initial skills also have less bonus feats, less hit points and a lower attack bonus.

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Although Scoundrels are kind of an interesting package. They're kind of middle-o-the-road in terms of starting feats and skills. However, they have a great list of skills, they start with a great feat (Point Blank Shot) and have a killer talent selection. Your assessment is spot on, though.

Sorry to go a little off topic.

Nifft said:

Well, I'm honestly not convinced. Let me try to explain my reasoning on this one.

1/ I *like* that a Focused 1st level hero is nearly guaranteed success in his one (or two if human) field(s) of Focus. That's what "hero at 1st level" should be like IMHO.

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I like the idea in concept, but in Saga specifically, I end up butting my head up against the skill focus (use the Force) Jedis. UTF is so varied in its uses and reasonably powerful that a d20+10+modifier skill roll is insane. It also tends to promote whining that 1st level Jedi are obligated to take deflect (because, let's be honest -- even if they take 10 on their UTF roll, you're talking a 20+stat defense substitution vs. an 11+stat natural reflex defense -- that's two attackers per round which you have a guaranteed advantage against).

For the rest of the skills, where they truly represent an *area* of focus, rather than the means by which a class primarily operates, I have no problem with focus as written.

I've considered adding "skill focus cannot grant a higher bonus than your character level" as a house rule for my next game. Scales up quickly enough to be full power by the time it's no longer a problem, not quite as broken at the beginning.

KarinsDad said:

This is an extreme example.

All 5 PCs must make the opposed roll for the party to succeed.

This is no different than at least 1 PC out of 5 must make the opposed perception roll to spot a hidden enemy.

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Extremely common in my experience. Spot / Listen see use in over 70% of the encounters I've run (at least once), and see multiple uses in at least 20%, though I've paid much less attention to tracking that.

What's extreme is the effort required to even get a 75% chance of party success.

And what's worse is that in 4e, we're to expect a 4:1 ratio of bad guys to PCs. So it's no longer 5 must beat 1, it's 5 must beat 20. That's a recipe for failure if you don't have a 100% chance of success against each of those 20.

KarinsDad said:

The game needs some form of "bonus" rules or something to handle these cases. This is a generic mathematical problem of nearly all RPGs that very few companies come up with rules for.

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Agree, but IMHO that's orthogonal.

KarinsDad said:

So, it shouldn't be used to illustrate a point in either direction since it really doesn't illustrate anything except a flaw in the rules.

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*shrug* Opposed skill checks are important. The other opposed check is going to be skill vs. the various Defenses, which will be very easy at low level and very hard at high level.

KarinsDad said:

The base way to illustrate the point is to compare the opposed skill roll math from a single character to another and vary the capabilities of each to see how differing capabilities changes the math. If the same level "best at x" versus the "worst at y" comes up with near 90% chance of success, the system is flawed.

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Why? Why is it bad for someone who's good at something to succeed against someone who sucks at that same thing? I feel like I'm missing something very important here.

Cheers, -- N

Kaffis said:

I like the idea in concept, but in Saga specifically, I end up butting my head up against the skill focus (use the Force) Jedis. UTF is so varied in its uses and reasonably powerful that a d20+10+modifier skill roll is insane. It also tends to promote whining that 1st level Jedi are obligated to take deflect (because, let's be honest -- even if they take 10 on their UTF roll, you're talking a 20+stat defense substitution vs. an 11+stat natural reflex defense -- that's two attackers per round which you have a guaranteed advantage against).

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Well, sure, but consider that Jedi:
1/ Are primary combatants.
2/ Don't get armor proficiency.
3/ Can't fight from behind cover like everyone else (who have the option at least of using ranged weapons).


Feats are really precious to a Jedi, who needs Force Training if he's going to have any fun Jedi tricks at all. He's also going to want some combat tricks (Acrobatic Strike, Powerful Charge, heck even Power Attack, and so on).


Finally, blaster pistols are only one way to attack. Jedi can spend a feat and a talent to have a superior defense against them, but they still have inferior defenses against most other attacks:
1/ Area attacks (grenade, autofire, whirlwind attack)
2/ Melee attacks (oo, there goes your 3rd level Talent)
3/ Long range or surprise attacks (Jedi can't hide, and their Talent is useless if they're caught without their lightsaber ignited)

Compare this to a Soldier's armor (passive Reflex and Fort bonus), a Scout's Evasion + Stealth, or a Scoundrel's luck + Stealth. (Look at how easily a Scout laughs off area attacks.) Everyone has his own shtick.

Cheers, -- N

Also remember that we designed the skill system in Saga so that, when you reach 20th level and are fighting the Sith Lord, it makes more sense for you to whip out your lightsaber and have a climactic duel than it does to just use move object to throw him off of one of the many no-handrails walkways that populate the SW universe. Given the lethality of Star Wars weapons (dealing 3d6 damage for a standard blaster pistol) the Jedi also need something to keep them survivable at low-levels while they're out in the fray with no cover and such.

Star Wars and D&D are very different animals thematically, and we designed the Star Wars skill system to fit the way Star Wars should play, not the way a generic d20 game should play. I'm not saying there won't be similarities between SWSE's skill system and 4E's, but I doubt you'll see it work exactly the same way.

Moridin said:

I'm not saying there won't be similarities between SWSE's skill system and 4E's, but I doubt you'll see it work exactly the same way.

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Hey that's a scoop!

And thanks for that Rodney, I'm feeling better now, not that I don't like SWSE skills, but as you said, D&D is a whole different monster to handle.