Confused about NPC/Monster generation

I sure hope monster generation is easier. I like coming up with "custom" baddies for my party to fight, throws curve balls at em.

I recently had an intelligent ghoul who messed with the parties head. He was a standard ghoul, but much much smarter then any other, and since the temple they were in was his former home, he was easily able to use things such as the hidden teleporters to mess with them.
 

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Remathilis said:
While I realize there is a lot of things about 4e not known, there have been several references to NPC/Monster "charts" that make a good challenge and I'm curious: does the chart influence the numbers (3rd level challenge 15-19 where in full plate or naked) or does the numbers influence the chart? (a typical 3rd level challenge has X for dex, y from level and z armor, resulting in a spread from 15-19 depending on exact armor or dex score.)

Is it the chicken or the egg?

I would assume that the chart sets the numbers, based on role and level. A 3rd-level Soldier opponent should have AC 17 (or whatever). Where you get that number from doesn't really matter.

Look at it this way: You know you need the enemy's AC to be 17 in order to get a "good fight." You could juggle a lot of numbers, dig through sourcebooks looking for obscure feats, and carefully hand-tailor the enemy's ability scores to produce that AC value... but really, what's the point? The PCs are never going to see your carefully crafted NPC stat sheet. They won't know or care that the 17 AC came from a chain shirt, Dexterity 12, a +1 level-based bonus, and the abyssal heritor feat from Fiendish Codex I that gives you natural armor. What matters to them is whether they can hit him or not.

Essentially, the new system (if it works the way I'm pretty sure it will) is just handwaving all that behind-the-scenes calculation. The end result is what's important, not the means taken to get there.
 

And, of course, for those NPCs and monsters that the DM wishes to have more structure and complication to their generation, the DM can always self-impose such structure. No reason that a DM couldn't use the full PC process to generate an NPC, if they feel that using looser guidelines is somehow cheating. Perhaps if there's a player-initiated, revolutionary audit of their NPC stats, they'll be the only ones in the pack of DMs not put against the wall. I, myself, plan to "cheat" like nobody's business when it comes to worrying about derived stats, because I'm lazy.
 

Xyl said:
Of course all level 26 elite soldiers don't have the same numbers as the Pit Fiend. That's why I used the word range. Making strawman arguments doesn't help your case.
I don't need to help my case, you already discarded it by saying it's way too complicated, just forget all about it. I still think that looking for numbers in a table based only on the monster's role may be limiting and I gave you examples why. Saying it's strawman argument doesn't help you at all, but at least it makes you look smart.

I could help your case saying that there may be many tables. A table for monster role, another table monster type, and minion/normal/elite table. Take numbers and powers from each and make a monster. I could live with that and I think it's a nice idea. Iron Heroes kind of uses. Nice idea Xyl!
 


When it comes right down to it, mechanically-speaking, monsters have:

-Stats
-Tricks
-Behaviors

Monsters will have the stats that allow them to fill a particular role... there's a whole range of stats that can fit the same role, but ultimately you want them to do X amount of damage until they take Y amount of punishment. They may do more damage up front, over time, single target, multiple targets, or whatever. Their staying power may be from HP, AC, Teleporting/Range, Regeneration, or whatever.

Monsters will have a few tricks that make them special and unique. Mind flayers can stun and thrall, dragons have crazy energy abilities, pit fiends summon and asplode. These get mixed and matched... stun+summon, thrall+energy, or whatever, for more unique combos (see: dragon with stun breath).

Monsters have their behaviors which determine how they use their stats and their tricks. Some will just plow right in, some will use every trick they have to make sure you never get at their stats. Some will go solo, some will work with the stats and tricks and behaviors of others.

Fluff aside, this is more or less what monsters boil down to. Regardless of system.

I don't see anything wrong in accepting this reality and making use of it.
 

I recently wanted to run a quick game. I threw together a quick set of rules based on what I was aware of for 4E at the time for the PCs.

For monsters I used the following for fighting lvl 1 PCs;

Brute: Attack +4, Defence +2 (+3AC)
Soldier: Attack +3, Defence +3 (+4AC)
Striker: Attack +2, Defence +4 (+5 Ref)
Commander: Attack +3, Defence +3 (+4 Will)
Controller: Attack +2, Defence +5 (+6 Will)

For armor I used;
Cloth +0 Light +3 Medium +5 Heavy +8
Shields: Buckler +1 Ref, Light +1AC/REF, Heavy +2AC/Fort, Tower +4AC/+2Ref/Fort

All I did was make up abilities for the monsters on the fly using stuff from Bo9S for inspiration, it worked well and was a lot of fun for the players. Probably the most fun we have had with DnD in years in fact, and they only fought Orcs (Brutes/Soldiers, a Striker and a Controller), and Goblins (Strikers), so really nothing great.
 

ainatan said:
So all 26 level elite soldiers have the same numbers of the Pit Fiend?
All 6 level skirmisher have the same numbers of the Spined Devil?

This is kinda my point...

My fear is that "the chart" is perfectly balanced but doesn't take into account oddities, or give any indication as to how to change it beyond "wing it".

Back to my example in of the pit fiend: a group of 26th level PCs stumble upon three pit fiends in three separate encounters: one just getting out of the shower (no armor), one on guard duty (typical equipment) and one preparing to launch a massive devil invasion (+2 full plate). Logic dictates that the first pit fiend (unarmored) has a lower AC than the breastplate pit-fiend which is lower than the +2 full plate pit fiend. But by how much? Is it implied that you take the "normal" PHB value of a breastplate (+6 in 3.5) subtract that from the AC (for the unarmored) and then add the value of +2 full plate (for the other?) or should the variance be smaller (since -6/+4 to AC might lower/raise its challenge level/xp value too much) and thus they still all have the same AC?

Another example: 4 5th-level soldiers (AC 19-23, ie) attack the party. One is wearing chain, one is wearing plate, one is wearing leather, and one is wearing nothing but a loincloth. Yet they still all fall into a 19-23 AC range?

Again, we don't know much about this chart, but I'm more curious (and I'd LOVE some WotC guy to explain this) to know how those numbers came about and what effect things like dex, armor, or magic can have on them without resorting to purely DM fiat...
 

Remathilis said:
My fear is that "the chart" is perfectly balanced but doesn't take into account oddities, or give any indication as to how to change it beyond "wing it".
I must admit that in all of the cases you presented, the DM seems to be going out of his way to complicate his life. He, therefore, shouldn't be surprised that he's got a complicated situation. As I noted above, if the DM isn't comfortable with using tables of suggested values and improvisation, of course the DM can always generated NPCs through a PC process, with all of the various levels of stat interdependence, equipment issues and such. It sounds as though Mearls did just that in one of his recent examples. In the Pit Fiend example, he can use how plate mail affects PCs and use that to back calculate how much of the Fiend's armor bonus is actual armor related. I would just slap a basic -4 AC on the naked Pit Fiend, if it were my game. I have to admit that I don't really feel that having DMs be responsible on the fly for this kind of accounting adds much to the game. For players, it's a lot easier, since they've only one character to worry about.
 

The chart/formulas for all the monster numbers by level are a guide. They are not rules, in the sense that a 19th level monster must have an AC from 31 to 34. They're a starting point.

Some DMs will just crank the numbers out and be happy without delving into the system math. The system works fine for these guys.

Others will want to account for all the numbers. For NPCs, we've included a "skill" rating of sorts, an abstraction of feats and magic items that allows you to give NPCs vanilla gear without messing up the numbers or giving the PCs tons of magical weapons and armor in addition to their normal treasure.

For monsters, things might be a little trickier if you want to account for all the numbers. You might give your level 18 demon a suit of plate and find that his AC is a little lower or higher than you want. In that case, you can either accept some wiggle room and change the number or find some reasonable explanation (the guy wears plate, but his AC is a little higher than expected because he has thick skin; you give him a shield or a couple of feats) or tinker with his attributes.

Running the numbers in my head, I think that using vanilla equipment as a base leads to reasonable, expected results. However, the need for an extra factor increases as you gain levels, particular for extreme case monsters.

In any case, you can still simply create NPCs. The abstracted "NPC skill bonus" is designed to allow them to use normal equipment and end up with reasonable numbers. We want to avoid a game where the PCs cart around huge piles of +1 and +2 armor and weapons looted from their foes. It messes up the standard rate of treasure and can lead to some absurd game world questions.

Damage is a little trickier. If you create a 12th level monster and give him a club, his base 1d6 damage isn't much for a 12th level guy, and if you boost his Strength you might end up with an absurd number.

In designing monsters, we accepted that the monster's attack is more than a sum of its weapon die and its stats. It also represents the monster's combat tactics and tendencies.

For instance, an ogre might do more damage and have lower accuracy than you expect based on his level, Strength score, and weapon. This reflects the ogre's wild but powerful swings. We essentially built Power Attack into his stats.

The really, really important thing with the system math is that it is all a guide. As a DM, it's up to you to decide how and why you want to tinker with stuff. The key lies in paying attention to the expected numbers, looking at your creature in light of those, and thinking of tweaks you can make to create a balanced package. Maybe you design an ogre gatecrasher who does a bit more damage than normal for his level, but you drop his AC or attack bonus a couple points to compensate.

As an example, I designed a monster for my home game that deals double normal damage but has half the normal hit points. It leads to a really swingy fight, but that's my intent. I want the PCs to be scared of a high damage roll from the guy, and eager to use their big attacks against him to knock him out quick.

Ideally, DMs will see the guidelines that they can use, abuse, and bend all they want to create the effects they are after. The thing that makes me happy about this system is that it "telescopes" to fit the DM's needs. You can spend as much or as little time building these guys as you want. If you need something quick, you can pull out the baseline numbers and use those. If you want to spend a while sculpting an NPC or monster to do something weird and interesting, you can dive into the system and do that.

I hope that the system provides a nice middle ground between a rigid mechanism and hand waving. There are rigid mechanisms in place, in that we crunched the math, created baselines, and built rules to get you to those baselines. However, those mechanisms are built to serve the end result. If you know that a level 8 monster should do 12 damage per hit on average, the game doesn't care whether you get that 12 via an arbitrary 2d8+3, or if you decide to give the guy a greatsword and a 20 Strength to make his damage 2d6+5. If you choose to make the guy's damage above average for his level, you know ahead of time that the guy hits harder than expected and can either design around that or just tell the players to suck it up.

The game basically says, "You're the DM. You decide, based on your campaign and your personal tastes, how you want to achieve these ends. It isn't our place to dictate that sort of thing to you."
 

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