Classes ... Much Less Flexible than Advertised

This thread is humorous. There's only 320 pages in this PHB. I'm still keeping my expectations for the flexibility low.

AllisterH said:

I hope I was clearer this time.

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Ok, I see what you are saying.

AllisterH said:

1. There's no STR restriction on wielding a greataxe/zweihander
2. Rogue X/FTR 1 gives you access to greataxe
3. Greataxe >>>>>> Rapier/Shortsword/Dagger.

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For a 2H weapon to *shine* you need a high strength, high attack bonus, and PA, is what I said. Though if you do have a low strength, you might have problems carting around all your adventuring gear plus a huge weapon without being encumbered - especially if you're a halfling or gnome - which a rogue does not want to do (keeps you from using evasion & tumbling, gives an armor check penalty, slows movement, etc.).

While it is true that the 2H weapons deal more damage than 1Hers, you're also delaying getting additional sneak attack dice by a level, losing out on skill points, and so on. Still a net win for the fighter dip (which is true for any martial class; fighter is just a great multiclass option), but there are some tradeoffs. If you assume every attack is a sneak attack, the great axe is +3 average damage (plus possibly more if str is 14+), while you're losing "half" of a sneak attack die, or -1.75 average damage, for a net gain of +1.25. The 2Her is obviously all kinds of win vs crit-immune targets.

As you note, the real problem is that the system doesn't reward using 1H weapons at all.

Mortellan said:

There's only 320 pages in this PHB. I'm still keeping my expectations for the flexibility low.

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I wonder how the 4E forum would stack up against the core three, in word count, as of June.

Celebrim said:

The thing is that alot of us got away from D&D precisely because of 'features' like that. We didn't see them as features. We saw them as bugs. We don't want dozens and dozens of books of kits and classes, which is exactly what this sort of preview promises.

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... but you keep buying them anyway.

What are you looking for the smart rogue to do? And in which previous editions do you feel that your concept of the smart rogue was given justice? I'm just curious as a basis for comparison.

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Most anything you'd expect a brilliant detective, a cunning liar, a streetwise urchin, a clever merchant, a master of riddles, a keenly observant tactician, and a master of lore to be able to do.

Specifically in combat this means, amongst other things:

• Using the battlefield to his advantage
• Seeing the weaknesses in an enemy's defense
• Knowing how and where and when to strike for maximum effect
• Seeing through bluffs and fients and dodges
• Not hitting often, but hitting hard when they do.
• To use knowledge to gain an immediate advantage
• To be able to manipulate enemies with words and deceptions and insidious forgeries
• To use a small amount of effort for a catastrophic effect

Previous editions haven't done an excellent job of it, but have nodded towards it with, for instance, the ability to do subdual damage with a sneak attack (for when information is more valuable than murder), or with a chance to use arcane scrolls or other magic devices (for when a little bit of knowledge can go a long way), or with feats such as Combat Expertise.

Saying "do it all with roleplaying!" is useless, because if I wanted to do that, I'd stick with my 1e fighters.

Kamikaze Midget said:

Most anything you'd expect a brilliant detective, a cunning liar, a streetwise urchin, a clever merchant, a master of riddles, a keenly observant tactician, and a master of lore to be able to do.

Specifically in combat this means, amongst other things:

• Using the battlefield to his advantage
• Seeing the weaknesses in an enemy's defense
• Knowing how and where and when to strike for maximum effect
• Seeing through bluffs and fients and dodges
• Not hitting often, but hitting hard when they do.
• To use knowledge to gain an immediate advantage
• To be able to manipulate enemies with words and deceptions and insidious forgeries
• To use a small amount of effort for a catastrophic effect

Previous editions haven't done an excellent job of it, but have nodded towards it with, for instance, the ability to do subdual damage with a sneak attack (for when information is more valuable than murder), or with a chance to use arcane scrolls or other magic devices (for when a little bit of knowledge can go a long way), or with feats such as Combat Expertise.

Saying "do it all with roleplaying!" is useless, because if I wanted to do that, I'd stick with my 1e fighters.

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There is nothing that says any of that has to be exclusive to rogues. Basically, you want to play a tactical character.

What 4E needs to provide to satisfy your demands is that ability, whether it's via rogue, warlord, fighter, ranger, or multiclassed combinations thereof. It may well be that all classes have a selection of powers that address this. In fact, I'd bet on it, at least in combat, with the talk that 4E is deemphasising the I hit/you hit approach of previous editions. Further, feats may provide similar abilities out of combat that can be used by everyone regardless of class.

Mercule said:

As I've said, I think it makes sense to give a ranger a narrow band of combat excellence. That way, he's a scary combatant, but doesn't encroach on the fighter's schtick too much. I just can't see any good rationale for TWF over any other style.

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For a ranger (in other words, a guy who regularly goes on long treks in the wild), sword & board doesn't make any sense. I think that's obvious.

Most great weapons are heavy and impractical. Who would want to lug an enormous greataxe across a swamp? Longspear is a possibility, but again, it's enormous and likely to get caught up on branches or other obstacles.

Single-weapon is simply sub-par, from a rules *or* a "real world" standpoint. Humans have two hands; it's a waste to not use both of them in a fight*.

That leaves TWF. The ranger, being a practical survivalist, will have a knife. That's good for the off hand. He'll also likely have an axe, or a spear/club/walking stick, or at least a backup knife. It just makes sense to pull out both weapons and dual-wield.

There's your rationale.

-z

* Keeping the open hand free to punch/grapple is dual wielding (knife + "unarmed strike").

Kamikaze Midget said:

Most anything you'd expect a brilliant detective, a cunning liar, a streetwise urchin, a clever merchant, a master of riddles, a keenly observant tactician, and a master of lore to be able to do.

Specifically in combat this means, amongst other things:

• Using the battlefield to his advantage
• Seeing the weaknesses in an enemy's defense
• Knowing how and where and when to strike for maximum effect
• Seeing through bluffs and fients and dodges
• Not hitting often, but hitting hard when they do.
• To use knowledge to gain an immediate advantage
• To be able to manipulate enemies with words and deceptions and insidious forgeries
• To use a small amount of effort for a catastrophic effect

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Hm. Well, obviously I'm biased (and a robot, whirr click), but I feel like my 4E rogue did all of those things.

And she could sneak attack with her shuriken. And a rapier, which she spent a feat for. It was worth it.

I enjoyed playing that rogue a great deal...and I felt far more effective with the class than in any previous edition.

My robotic .02 cents.

The Bringer of Peace said:

And she could sneak attack with her shuriken. And a rapier, which she spent a feat for. It was worth it.

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Woohoo! THANK you.

I can't wait to get into work tomorrow and tell the guys that I just read a thread on EnWorld in which people were discussing the fact that a rogue HAS to hide and steal things.

I also suppose WoTC are going to pigeon hole every wizard into HAVING to use spells (instead of there being a character option for those who want a non-magical wizard) or the fighter into HAVING to devote resources to combat.

I am revoking my pre-order!
DS