Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

xechnao said:

Whatever. Again, repeating myself, I stress that the core set is still a failure for an introduction to newbies to the genre: tabletop rpgs and this is the point of this thread.

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Tabletop RPGs are CRPGs. They just have a human server instead of a computer.

xechnao said:

So? Let's just be realistic of what we are talking about. Do you honestly believe that a kid not knowing tabletop RPGs will choose to buy the core set instead of a mainstream console game or even say a pack of game cards or a box of minis? I believe not.

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Sure, if it means a more flexible, immediate way of killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Now if you mean all that rigmarole about character agendae, author stance, kickers, bangers and narrative control? Maybe not.

hong said:

Sure, if it means a more flexible, immediate way of killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Now if you mean all that rigmarole about character agendae, author stance, kickers, bangers and narrative control? Maybe not.

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Indeed. I think Xechnao forgot that most of us (at least those that started in their teens) did not start to play D&D for deep immersion story telling, we started it to do heroic stuff involving lots of fighting, like we saw in the movies and read about in books.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Some discover later, as they age, that they like less combat and more story/plot/intrigue, others like more of that in addition to combat/action, and some discover that they like a combat/dungeon crawling focused game.

Also, if a kid is too dumb to "get" the rules, then I highly doubt the kid is interested in deep immersion story telling either.

Fenes said:

And I disagree. Although speaking from personal experience, I do not think that kids (13+, as in what D&D probably goes after) are really after "Kiddie versions" of a game. Those kids generally want the full, real deal The core books offer them that. And as was pointed out, relative to the average background in games those kids have, D&D delivers.

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In my area there are three FLGS that have tabletop rpgs and board games. They are full of kids and teenagers that play card and mini games. Only people in their 18s and plus approach the rpg books section and these are counted in fingers in contrast to the rest of the crowd. In some other fantasy or comic book stores they sell only action figures, cards and minis.
In my teens the hard rock and heavy metal music trend among teenagers was very linked to the rpg market. Now this is not the case any more. Or I do not know. Still if it were not for the older generations I doupt that this generation would have any tabletop story driven rpgs to deal with. Competitive 2d and 3d games yes (cards, miniatures, video games) but story driven no.
We have to make it easier for them, not harder. 832 pages do not help. This is the point. Hell, I swear that the shop manager of one of the FLGS told me Saturday himself. The D&D PHB cannot compete as a game to the mini rulebooks of mini games and card games for the new generation.
So the problems are two here. 1st: all they seem to want is just a game. 2nd: even as an introductory game to rpg world D&D cannot compete with the other games for the new generation.
Perhaps in the USA things are different. But here, my personal experiences agree 100% with the points risen in this thread regarding the problems of the D&D core set as an introductory product to tabletop rpgs.

Fenes said:

Also, if a kid is too dumb to "get" the rules, then I highly doubt the kid is interested in deep immersion story telling either.

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It is the second time you speak of dumbness here. I do not think that dumbness has anything to do with it. Why you mention it to make a point it is beyond me.

xechnao said:

It is the second time you speak of dumbness here. I do not think that dumbness has anything to do with it. Why you mention it to make a point it is beyond me.

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Because in my honest opinion, you are stating, in effect, that you think "kids" are too dumb to understand D&D's rule books. I disagree, and consider the rulebooks appropriate for kids of 13+ age given their background.

Fenes said:

Because in my honest opinion, you are stating, in effect, that you think "kids" are too dumb to understand D&D's rule books. I disagree, and consider the rulebooks appropriate for kids of 13+ age given their background.

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You missed my point then and perhaps the point of this thread. It does not deal with the ability to understand D&D if one appropriately decides to study it. It deals with this decision or put it in other words the attraction the D&D PHB can cast to those that they do not know what it is about. An attraction in a world that needs to be stronger than others so to be a choice.

xechnao said:

You missed my point then and perhaps the point of this thread. It does not deal with the ability to understand D&D if one appropriately decides to study it. It deals with this decision or put it in other words the attraction the D&D PHB can cast to those that they do not know what it is about. An attraction in a world that needs to be stronger than others so to be a choice.

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I also disagree with the assumption that

a) the average potential buyer doens't know what a RPG is

b) D&D fails to be an attractive option

and

c) that D&D has to be a stronger option than others to be a choice.

Point a) was demosntrated already to be false, b) was laid out to be false as well, and c) assumes wrongly that people will only buy one thing, and not two. As many of us play D&D and C/VGames, D&D just has to be attractive, which it is.

xechnao said:

You missed my point then and perhaps the point of this thread. It does not deal with the ability to understand D&D if one appropriately decides to study it. It deals with this decision or put it in other words the attraction the D&D PHB can cast to those that they do not know what it is about. An attraction in a world that needs to be stronger than others so to be a choice.

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1. There were quite a lot of people apparently willing to buy the 4E books sight unseen, if presales figures are to be believed.

2. For those who want to look before they leap, this is what the PHB says: "the Player's Handbook contains everything you need to create a heroic character of your own". And in fact, the text on that page should do a pretty good job of selling the D&D experience to someone who's never seen it before.

xechnao said:

An attraction in a world that needs to be stronger than others so to be a choice.

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The problem for WotC is, if we reduce the argument to the following ...

"Would a "kid" (for any given value of "kid") buy these dense tomes of 832 total pages ... or this Halo 3 disc?"

... and ...

"Getting started with these 832 pages takes longer than getting started with this Halo 3 disc" ...

... then D&D will never, ever equal the utility of a console game. Never. Until it becomes a console game itself. So it's a fools errand to lambast 4e for not being as easy to access as a console game, for this is a holy grail that can never be found. Unless we reduce the game to just the minis and a note saying "large monsters are badass. Now pretend". But then Halo 3 will win again.

So I don't think even a basic version of D&D will appeal to those who choose a console game because of ease of use. And thus, what WotC needs to do is find other means of attracting new players. Maybe they should double the page count? That would intrigue and mystify people, if nothing else. And the new players would flock to the game!

/M