Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items
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Turanil
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Storm Raven said:
Sorry, but like most of the others who quoted me: . you just DIDN'T READ IT. .Storm Raven said:
I don't say that I don't allow to buy magical items. In fact, in another post I say I allow to commission an item, and this takes roleplaying and adventuring, not taking your pencil and removing 50,000 gp to replace by "sword +5" on your character sheet. Here, I say that I do find absurd and destroying of the fantasy aspect of the game, when players go to the magic shop.
The MAGIC SHOP i.e.: "Hello! How much cost this nice sword +5 here on the shelf?!".
I can agree with some item sold on the black market by shabby individuals affiliated to the thieves' guild or what not. However this requires roleplaying, adventuring, and risks (of being cheated in some way). But the magic shop, i.e.: the player just takes his pencil and exchange the words "50,000 gp" on his PC sheet for the words "sword +5", I find this LAME.
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Storm Raven
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reanjr said:
That's what having rogues and other information gathering types in a party are for.
In my experience, most PCs (who can) are willing to make magic items in exchange to trade, even just to trade for cash. Not all the time, but every now and then during their career. If you want to come up with an "xp limit", a good rule of thumb would likely be 1/25th of the gold piece limit.
This is an element of every market. Magic items should be no different in this regard. But it hasn't killed the market in any other commodity, it just makes buyers cautious.
It can, but on the other hand, masterwork swords can be sundered quite easily too, but there are plenty of them available for sale. In reality, cars wear out after a few short years of use, but we have millions of them available for sale daily.
Now think about all of the people around the world who have weapons. Especially in less than completely civilized areas of the world (which are usually analogous to the places that adventurers would spend lots of time in). Do you under stand just how easy is it to get weaponry in Afghanistan, or Sudan, or Somalia?
I believe that your understanding of feudal law is somewhat lacking. Note, for example, that contrary to your assertions, historical feudal rulers often had to borrow heavily from those in their lands to finance their wars and other ambitions (rather than, for example, just confiscating their property as you would have them do). The very essence of fuedal law was reciprocating rights: the lord had power, but he also had duties and responsibilities to his vassals. Many feudal kings were overthrown (such as Richard II) or curbed by force (such as John Lackland) when they were perceived to have trampled on the rights of their vassals. What you assert as an example of "feudal law" is probably more like the law applied by the pre-Hellenic asiatic emperors of the middle-east.
Storm Raven
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Bregh said:
Which would only be impossible in an environment in which you posited that there would be no market for magic items.
Numion
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Turanil said:
The risk aspect of buying magic items has popped up a couple of times in this thread. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but, how likely would the Thieves Guild or whatnot to piss of characters who evidently have earned 50k (or whatever large sum they're spending) in adventuring?
It's about the same as a shady used cars salesman tried to sell a lemon to person he knew to be Magneto / Superman. The thieves know that these are very tough hombres. Maybe there would be easy pickings elsewhere ..
Storm Raven
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Turanil said:
And the only person talking about having a magic shop in a campign is you. Perhaps you could find another argument no one is making, and fight about that?
Storm Raven said:
Nonsense.
The trade commodity would merely have to be something other than coin.
Personally, I recommended an exchange of components and cash, but certainly a transaction that involved only specific components for the fashioning of the items desired would be feasible.
The game effect is subtly different, to be sure, restricting somewhat the convenience and ease with which magic can be acquired, but then flavour issues seem to be what's really at stake here.
Neither the intial poster, nor all the others who have followed him, are saying there's no possibility or likelihood of a market for magic items. Some are simply saying it could (and maybe should) be based on something other than gold.
[too lazy to go a few pages back and quote]
Am I the only one who finds the notion of more than a handful of successful con-men magic item dealers rather implausible? I mean, ripping off adventurers (who are practically famous for killing people and taking their stuff when wronged) who have thousands of gp on hand to spend on magic doesn't seem like a good idea.
Am I the only one who finds the notion of more than a handful of successful con-men magic item dealers rather implausible? I mean, ripping off adventurers (who are practically famous for killing people and taking their stuff when wronged) who have thousands of gp on hand to spend on magic doesn't seem like a good idea.
Storm Raven
First Post
Bregh said:
A trade commodity that would, inevitably, devolve to something that could be exchanged for gold. If you can trade magic items for land, and land for money, at some point someone will simply eliminate the middle-man and simply trade magic items for money.
Cash is just a place holder for value, it simply eliminated the barter exchange requirement that I find someone who is offering the exact same commodity that I need and wants the exact same commodity I have to trade. Instead of me wandering about offering a pair of shoes in trade, looking for someone who needs shoes and has, say, milk (which is what I happen to need) to offer me in return, I just look for someone who needs shoes for cash, and then find someone who has milk to sell. Cash eliminates the need to have a perfect synchronicity between buyer needs and seller needs. That's all.
Components that could, in virtually all cases, likely be purchased for cash. Which means you are recommending an exchange of cash and cash.
And in the end, that's simply saying that a market is based upon money, since ultimately, almost everything can be expressed in a cash value. The "something else" you are buying and selling magic items with will be translated into a cash value (or it has no value to begin with), and then you are just back to "cash for magic", where you started.
If you want to bring economic realities into the picture, which is usually not a good idea in fantasy worlds:
Permanent magic items (and to a lesser extent the charged ones as well) essentially have the same sort of market as art and antiques.
1) Unpredictable Supply and Demand
2) Low real utility
3) High inventory costs
4) High overhead for security, procurement and transportation of goods.
In addition they have the problem that dangerous magical items (and maybe even weapons in general) are most likely a controlled product with stiff local regulations on their sale and possession. To ensure security, the shop owner wouls probably have to pay the local crime syndicate protection monies further raising the prices and limiting market access.
Furthermore, items available for sale would vary wildy in price and certainly would not have a modern day walmart style pricing = intrinsic product value + x% margin markup (as they are presented in the DMG). There's no real way to judge the value of an item except through expectations on it's utility, which vary from individual to individual. In addition, many magic items might be bought by rich collectors who have no intention of using them and could afford t pay much higher prices than a PC, essentially removing many exisiting items from the market.
The creators of these items, wizards and clerics, certainly would not create expensive items for anonymous sale. The opportunity costs are too high. They would only do so on special request, with all of the costs (or maybe the whole price) payed up front. Local conditions such as gov't regulation and organized crime might even prevent them from selling direct to the public at all.
The kinds of entities that could actually afford to run a magic shop would have to have enormous resources and political clout to do so. This combined with the special treatment they receive by paying off the local mafia would mean a single entity would have a near monopoly on the market share. I could see maybe only one of these kinds of shops in a whole kingdom, certainly only one per large city or metropolis.
Permanent magic items (and to a lesser extent the charged ones as well) essentially have the same sort of market as art and antiques.
1) Unpredictable Supply and Demand
2) Low real utility
3) High inventory costs
4) High overhead for security, procurement and transportation of goods.
In addition they have the problem that dangerous magical items (and maybe even weapons in general) are most likely a controlled product with stiff local regulations on their sale and possession. To ensure security, the shop owner wouls probably have to pay the local crime syndicate protection monies further raising the prices and limiting market access.
Furthermore, items available for sale would vary wildy in price and certainly would not have a modern day walmart style pricing = intrinsic product value + x% margin markup (as they are presented in the DMG). There's no real way to judge the value of an item except through expectations on it's utility, which vary from individual to individual. In addition, many magic items might be bought by rich collectors who have no intention of using them and could afford t pay much higher prices than a PC, essentially removing many exisiting items from the market.
The creators of these items, wizards and clerics, certainly would not create expensive items for anonymous sale. The opportunity costs are too high. They would only do so on special request, with all of the costs (or maybe the whole price) payed up front. Local conditions such as gov't regulation and organized crime might even prevent them from selling direct to the public at all.
The kinds of entities that could actually afford to run a magic shop would have to have enormous resources and political clout to do so. This combined with the special treatment they receive by paying off the local mafia would mean a single entity would have a near monopoly on the market share. I could see maybe only one of these kinds of shops in a whole kingdom, certainly only one per large city or metropolis.
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