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The State of American Animation

WizarDru said:
Ha! That would a perfect example. That was the king of the Kiba ("Fang") Clan Bandits, who in the movie is reduced to a bit player for all of 15 seconds or so. In the series, he and his bandits are the subject of a 5 episode story arc, condensed from 3 volumes of manga. One thing about the series is that a lot is made of martial art schools and how the styles interact; something the movie completely glossed over, and something the English translations always avoid, it seems.

Maybe it's just me, but when I was 16 and saw this at the Music Box, high as a friggin kite, I thought, "Man, it must be awesome to just punch through somebody."

Nowadays I keep trying to find the manga. The latest version was in full color deluxe edition and went for 9 volumes and introduced the missing brother, whose not even in the movie at all. It too of course, was cancelled. Argh!
 

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JoeGKushner said:
Maybe it's just me, but when I was 16 and saw this at the Music Box, high as a friggin kite, I thought, "Man, it must be awesome to just punch through somebody."

Nowadays I keep trying to find the manga. The latest version was in full color deluxe edition and went for 9 volumes and introduced the missing brother, whose not even in the movie at all. It too of course, was cancelled. Argh!

Yeah, that was a pity. The manga ran some 28 volumes, I think. Beserk!'s Miura claims it as a direct influence on his work. The show/manga Gantz has one of the characters quoting directly from it, too. There were four brothers, in total: Ken, Jagi, Toki (aka Jesus Christ) and Ra-O. Ken was the youngest and third most powerful, but was eventually named the Hokuto successor. Hilarity (and a nuclear war) ensues. Oh, and the fake Toki, but that's another story. Oh, and Ra-O's brother Kai-O, and the Gento Stars...and, and....well, the show did go over 100 episodes, and I might have watched a couple of them. Heh. Such is the style of Ultimate Sadness. :)
 

How about a different thread with a semi-decent breakdown? Most of the sites I've seen are in Japanese and despite my enjoyment of manga, I'm not learning a new language just for that!
 


This isn't an example that most people will be able to take advantage of, but if anyone's familiar with Naruto, it's a great example of an anime that has a wide range of what it's capable of. There are very serious fighting episodes, episodes where nothing it taken seriously at all, and some that move you to tears (case in point, I just watched episode 109, which was absolutely heart-breaking).

Just wanted to toss that out there.
 

Naruto hasn't even come stateside yet, has it? Yeah, yeah, people have been watching it in Japan or off the net for ages, but I don't have that option.

Only read the first 3-4 manga volumes myself. Seems interesting, if a bit quirky. (Hardcore ninja violence starring cute widdle adolescents. yeesh)
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Quite possibly.

Quite possibly. However, there certainly are folks who are into that kind of cultural envy. Just because I'm not a huge anime fan doesn't mean I'm not familiar with anime fandom. In fact, anime fandom is certainly a factor in why I'm not a bigger fan of anime.

Galeros may not be that kind of guy, and from his subsequent posts, he seems to not be (so my mistake in jumping on him, although I tried not to be rude about it) but don't try to tell me there aren't a whole bunch of really nerdy anime fanboys that aren't exactly as I described. I've met some in person. I've met scads of them online. They're scary.
otaku7gr.jpg
 

Generally speaking, anime provides a wide variety of entertainment forms (comedy, horror, action, romance, etc), but it usually does so through the lens of Japanese culture. That is to say, generally speaking, you're getting your entertainment delivered to you with a set of cultural assumptions in it -- just like you are with American cartoons.

Now, there are commercial reasons for the success of anime in Japan, and it's possible that if enough corporate studios got behind it, 2d animation in America could take off in the same arenas -- although there've been enough 2d flops to make the American corporate execs pretty leery about that. (I'm not saying that Titan AE was good or bad. I'm saying it was a flop, financially, and the execs, whether right or wrong, look at that and say, "We put big actors and a lot of money in there, and it still flopped. Whatever the reason, it's not gonna work for us right now.")

All that said, I still, generally speaking, don't dig on anime, primarily because I don't dig on the cultural differences. This doesn't mean I hate Japan. This doesn't mean that I think Japan is more sexist than the U.S. -- it means that I have learned to accept the American cultural stuff that I don't like in a movie that I otherwise do like, because I've grown up with it, and I can tune out some stuff. I can't tune out the Japanese stuff, because it's all new to me, and I have to sit watching the whole movie going, "Really? This is what they think about women? This is their idea of a tenderhearted romance? This is...? Feh."

So, my short answers are that:

1) American 2d animation is unlikely to get the kind of market penetration that Japanese animation gets any time soon.
2) Every culture brings its own stuff in with it -- and while few people can justifiably and intelligently claim to be able to judge one culture as superior to another, it is perfectly reasonable for folks to like or dislike certain cultural things because of their own personal preferences. Nobody should be casting stones.
3) Market forces are not evil bad things corporate people do to program the unsuspecting public. Corporations sell anything they think anyone wants to buy. Right now, they think Americans would rather just buy anime DVDs than go see stuff in the theater -- at least, in sufficient quantities to be profitable.

And personally, I enjoyed "Spirited Away", thought "Princess Mononoke" was decent but somewhat overrated (possibly read too much build-up), laughed at the few Ranma episodes someone showed me but didn't feel a need to hunt more down, and have seen a lot of stuff (Ninja Scroll, I think, maybe, for example -- the one with the poison babe and the guy with the sword on a string) that was built up for me as wonderful and struck me as lame. I almost find the dialogue stilted (less so when subtitled, but then, I turn on captions even when watching U.S. TV, so possibly I'm biased toward reading) and the brood-factor too high for me to enjoy.

Please note that I'm not saying no anime could ever entertain me (as you'll note by the use of "enjoy" in that paragraph). I'm saying that the stuff I've seen seemed to have some things that didn't do it for me personally as part of the basic cultural assumption.

Which likely means that if you did see a big upswing in American animation, it'd probably be American animation, without many of the cultural assumptions that anime usually makes. It would have American cultural assumptions -- which means that you probably wouldn't enjoy it -- at least, not in the same way that you enjoy anime.

It's okay to like Amelie and not There's Something About Mary. It's okay to like There's Something About Mary and not Amelie. It's okay to like both. It's okay to like neither. But it's obvious to most people that they come from different countries, and carry different cultural assumptions with them. And that difference is a valid reason to like or dislike either of them. It's subjective as heck, but it's valid. :)
 

Galeros said:
It seems to me today that the animation market is dominated by Japanese anime, now I myself like anime, and even know a bit of Japanese myself.

Ore no nihongo wa heta desuga kokorondeiru.

But, it seems American animation is lagging behind, all that is produced now is comedy shows like Family Guy or The Simpsons, it seems there is very little serious american animation out there.

Any opinions?

In Japan, T.V. is dominated by animation, so it makes sense that their animation is going to progress more quickly than America's for that medium. But America's still way ahead on cinematic animation.

The current American television animation, to me, seems to be somewhat of a fad/company thing. You've got the Ren & Stimpy style animation that grew to dominate the Cartoon Network and Nickelodean, and you've got the Groening/Simpsons animation that grew to dominate prime time television.

It's not really that there is nothing else out there, it's just that those two companies and their clones do most of the animation.

But on the cinema front, you keep getting massive CG breakthroughs (mostly from Pixar, but also Dreamworks) and even on non-CG (though certainly computer-aided) you still get absolutely beautiful movies like the Iron Giant and Prince of Egypt. Non-CG animation is just getting a bit rare nowadays.
 

takyris said:
Generally speaking, anime provides a wide variety of entertainment forms (comedy, horror, action, romance, etc), but it usually does so through the lens of Japanese culture. That is to say, generally speaking, you're getting your entertainment delivered to you with a set of cultural assumptions in it -- just like you are with American cartoons.


I hope I'm understanding what you're saying here. You're saying that when you watch one of these shows, (from either country) you're seeing something made from the industry's "assumption" of what they think you like to watch?

If that's what you're saying, I agree. And with that, both countries have producers that often assume wrong. Thus, shows that are bad.

takyris said:
Now, there are commercial reasons for the success of anime in Japan, and it's possible that if enough corporate studios got behind it, 2d animation in America could take off in the same arenas -- although there've been enough 2d flops to make the American corporate execs pretty leery about that. (I'm not saying that Titan AE was good or bad. I'm saying it was a flop, financially, and the execs, whether right or wrong, look at that and say, "We put big actors and a lot of money in there, and it still flopped. Whatever the reason, it's not gonna work for us right now.")

Yeah, you're right. Its too bad that the execs sometimes think this way.

It should be said that there are differences in how American studios make TV animation and Feature Film animation. Yes, there has been some unsuccessful investments in both. But the ones that you're bringing up are the big Feature Film ones. Judging on how successful the animation market is based on the numbers from "Final Fantasy: Spirits Within", "Titan AE", "Quest for Camelot", and such isn't a good measuring stick.

The problem with those movies and a lot of the rest of animation, is that they aren't made in the same way that movies like "Iron Giant" and "The Incredibles" are made. My gripe, that I mentioned earlier, is that one of the major weaknesses that hamper the growth of American animation is this reason. Its not that animation is risky, its mostly the state of how the industry works. American studios aren't incompetant. They do have talented people with good artists as well as good production people. They just need to be let loose to do what they do best without the interference from those who don't know the craft or have no pulse on the audience. Now, it happens every now and then, but just not often enough to push the industry significantly further.



takyris said:
All that said, I still, generally speaking, don't dig on anime, primarily because I don't dig on the cultural differences. This doesn't mean I hate Japan. This doesn't mean that I think Japan is more sexist than the U.S. -- it means that I have learned to accept the American cultural stuff that I don't like in a movie that I otherwise do like, because I've grown up with it, and I can tune out some stuff.

That's a very good point. I think this is a totally legit reason to not like anime. Its just not your thing.



takyris said:
I can't tune out the Japanese stuff, because it's all new to me, and I have to sit watching the whole movie going, "Really? This is what they think about women?

Not sure if you think this or not. But not all Japanese media demean women. Its mostly an amime thing. I watch Japanese TV a lot too, and I don't see it in their live action shows. I bring this up because I don't want people reading this to think that the whole of Japan are a bunch of sexist pigs. This latest generation of Japanese is different than that of the old school generation. I think the treatment of females in a lot of certain types of anime is due mostly to the makers catering to the horny weirdo geek boy market. Those guys above with the pillows. :) Unfortunately, that's what seems to get translated and brought to the states the most. Unfortunately.

There is though, another point. Even though there's lots of objectifying of women and perv cheesecake going on....they still do a few things concerning equality of representation better than a lot of American shows I know. You know that in America, its hard to pitch an action/adventure show where the main lead is a female? Next to impossible. Because so much is based on appealing to 7-10 year old boys to watch and buy the toys, the execs think boys won't buy girl dolls. Whatever......one of my favorite characters as a kid was Miria from the Robotech series. They only do lead females if its a musical or a slap stick/comedy show like "Power Puff Girls" or "Kim Possible".

2nd Point: it maybe true that you won't make as much money if the main toy franchise character for your action/adventure line is a girl, but that shows again the weakness of the industry only catering to a small demographic (12 and under).

So yes, there's shows like "Burn UP W" and what not, but there are plenty of Anime shows that (to me) have stronger written female characters than most I've seen in American shows.
 

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