+1 LA for humans & other core races

Roman said:

+1.5 ECL is perfect - right in the middle between 1 and 2, but does not +2 to every ability score sound to you like more of a power boost than a level in a normal class would give you?

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The average CR rating for a class below epic is 1.15, for a wizard 1.23 and for a cleric even 1.32. So it is a bit more powerful, but well within the variance.

Also, what do you think about my proposed benefits for a dwarf? Also, do you have any suggestions as to the other races?

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EN World - Fixing the Half-Orc and EN World - Fixing the Half-Elf? should have some ideas, but I don't find a link to another thread with every race discussed. Otherwise I'm a bit low on suggestions.

Dwarves:
1) Choose one of: Improved Darkvision or Know Worth
2) Choose one of: Burly and Tough or Valuables Sense
3) Choose one of: Strong Roots or In the Hands of he Earth

Improved Darkvision/Darksight: The Dakvision of the dwarf increases in range from 60' to 90'.

Know Worth: Dwarves are natural hagglers and their frequent work with valuables grants them a +5 bonus to the Appraise skill.

Burly and Tough: Dwarven bodies are tough and dense giving them a damage reduction of 1 against bludgeoning weapons (and only bludgeoning weapons).

Valuables Sense: Dwarves have an instinctual sense of precious metals and gems. Whenever a dwarf comes within 30' of an object made from or a deposit of a precious metal or a gem he automatically knows its location.

Strong Roots: Dwarves are tough and have a bond to the earth that enables them to cling to life when most would perish. Dwarves die at -15hp instead of at -10hp.

In the Hands of the Earth: Mother earth take care of its own. Dwarves are therefore in little danger of dying. While underground dwarves get to reroll any failed survival checks or checks to avoid underground hazards, such as collapsing ceilings, pit falls and so on and gain a +5 bonus to survival: underground checks. A dwarf can always find enough edible food and clean water for himself while underground.

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The dwarf have already a whopping bonus of +0.51 CR to begin with.

Darkvision has normally 60' and a rating of +0.2, so I would suggest, that your improved version is +0.3 CR worth. Only an improvement of +0.1.

Know Worth:+0.02 CR for every bonus skill point. So we get a +0.1 CR.

Burly and Tough: DR against only one type equates to a DR with vulnerability to several types. Thus for every point of DR the increase of the CR is in this case +0.025. A bit low, isn't it? I would use then at least a DR of 4, but how about improving the DR to 2/Adamantine? This would also give +0.1 CR.

Valuables Sense:This is a bit strong because of its automatic success. How about changing it to the way, with which the elves discover hidden doors? "An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it." But for a dwarf, I would use a Spot check. Interestingly enough, UK didn't rate this ability for the elves, so I'm leaving it out. Maybe it isn't worth a CR rating, because it isn't that much of an advantage.

Strong Roots: Hmm, such an ability isn't included in the PDF, so we have to engineer that out. Would you give this ability to a character for a feat? If yes, then it is +0.2 CR worth. If not, then rate the fraction.

In the Hands of the Earth: Hmm, that is also beyound the scope of the PDF. I don't anything, from which I can derive a CR rating. I'll have to ask UK himself.

Anyway, even combined are all abilities below the +1 CR we are shooting for. You have upgrade one or more abilities.

Psychic Warrior said:

Monte Cook has some Racial Level classes available for download on his site here. my group has been using these for some time and they are a very nice addition to the game.

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This is very interesting indeed.

RuleMaster said:

The average CR rating for a class below epic is 1.15, for a wizard 1.23 and for a cleric even 1.32. So it is a bit more powerful, but well within the variance.

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It's not even more powerful, since to the class CRs one needs to add the normal racial CR...

EN World - Fixing the Half-Orc and EN World - Fixing the Half-Elf? should have some ideas, but I don't find a link to another thread with every race discussed. Otherwise I'm a bit low on suggestions.

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Thank you - I will definitely give these a look.

The dwarf have already a whopping bonus of +0.51 CR to begin with.

Darkvision has normally 60' and a rating of +0.2, so I would suggest, that your improved version is +0.3 CR worth. Only an improvement of +0.1.

Know Worth:+0.02 CR for every bonus skill point. So we get a +0.1 CR.

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Indeed, hence the two choices are equal here.

Burly and Tough: DR against only one type equates to a DR with vulnerability to several types. Thus for every point of DR the increase of the CR is in this case +0.025. A bit low, isn't it? I would use then at least a DR of 4, but how about improving the DR to 2/Adamantine? This would also give +0.1 CR.

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I do think that damage reduction against bludgeoning weapons alone would be worth 0.1 CR, why do you think it is so weak as to warrant only +0.024 CR?

Valuables Sense:This is a bit strong because of its automatic success. How about changing it to the way, with which the elves discover hidden doors? "An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it." But for a dwarf, I would use a Spot check. Interestingly enough, UK didn't rate this ability for the elves, so I'm leaving it out. Maybe it isn't worth a CR rating, because it isn't that much of an advantage.

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You have a very good point here, but I would like it to be about as strong as the Burly and Tough ability - since they are two choices and should be approximately equal. Still, you are right that this might be too strong because of the automatic success.

Strong Roots: Hmm, such an ability isn't included in the PDF, so we have to engineer that out. Would you give this ability to a character for a feat? If yes, then it is +0.2 CR worth. If not, then rate the fraction.

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I would say it is worth about a feat or possibly slightly more. It effectively adds 5 hit points, while toughness only adds 3 hit points, but the hit points this adds are less useful (since the character is unconscious and bleeding for an extra 5 hit points rather than having extra 3 hit points of consciousness and ability to act).

In the Hands of the Earth: Hmm, that is also beyound the scope of the PDF. I don't anything, from which I can derive a CR rating. I'll have to ask UK himself.

Anyway, even combined are all abilities below the +1 CR we are shooting for. You have upgrade one or more abilities.

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Hmm, maybe you are right. What would be suitable for upgrading, or perhaps adding more abilities might be the way to go?

Roman said:

It's not even more powerful, since to the class CRs one needs to add the normal racial CR...

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We are comparing the "second" level here - assume a bunch of half-orc fighters, which are given the choice of several packages, which increase their CR - they already have a hit dice, skill points, two feats, etc.

Thank you - I will definitely give these a look.

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My pleasure.

I do think that damage reduction against bludgeoning weapons alone would be worth 0.1 CR, why do you think it is so weak as to warrant only +0.024 CR?

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+0.025. It is quite simple - there are many, many more types which this DR doesn't protect than it does protect. How many fighters don't use swords? Also it is only 1 point of damage - not really effective, considering that against someone with a strength bonus will never fail to do damage. But how about changing the DR type to "-"? This results in +0.2 CR per point.

You have a very good point here, but I would like it to be about as strong as the Burly and Tough ability - since they are two choices and should be approximately equal. Still, you are right that this might be too strong because of the automatic success.

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Like I've already stated, you have to use all of the abilities to achieve a +1 CR, so if you use my suggestion, then you need only up something else.

I would say it is worth about a feat or possibly slightly more. It effectively adds 5 hit points, while toughness only adds 3 hit points, but the hit points this adds are less useful (since the character is unconscious and bleeding for an extra 5 hit points rather than having extra 3 hit points of consciousness and ability to act).

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I would rule, that Toughness gives 1hp/level, otherwise it is too weak. Maybe Strong Roots could function the same, but backwards?

Hmm, maybe you are right. What would be suitable for upgrading, or perhaps adding more abilities might be the way to go?

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I would use a higher DR rating. The warforged has, AFAIK, also a DR, so it wouldn't be that unusual.

CR is nothing close to the same as ECL/LA. A race could have the innate ability of Analyze Dweomer at will, or a racial +20 bonus on Diplomacy and Balance and all Craft checks, and it wouldn't affect their Challenge Rating in the least. Because it's no harder to beat such a creature than one without those benefits, yet the creature with those innate qualities is certainly more useful as a Player Character than as an opponent. Ignore Challange Rating calculations when determining the usefulness of a PC race.

+2 to an ability score is far from being worth +1 LA. Do Ogre Magi have a +15 LA due to their many high ability scores? Hell no. Because each +2 to an ability score is far from being worth a +1 LA by itself. Ogre Magi only have a few points of LA alongside their racial hit dice, and they're big critters with magic powers to boot. Don't make the foolish assumption that +2 Str or something is even close to +1 LA by itself. That's what gets you stupid races like the core-rules half-orc. And besides, the DMG tells us straight up that some ability scores are more useful than others.

I'd suggest you combine Turanil's suggestions for the human and add that the character gets +2 on checks with their two(?) chosen skills. So +2 to any ability score, two skills that are easy for them to learn and use, and +1 on all saving throws. Maybe make it +2 on all saving throws, even. Consider that with a class level, you'd get a few skill ranks, around half a dozen or more hit points usually, often one or more save bonuses, usually a base attack increase, and sometimes a feat or class ability.

make them have thier first level in: warrior, aristocrat, or expert ... don't make it count against xp, and they should still get max hp for their 2nd level

Arkhandus said:

CR is nothing close to the same as ECL/LA. A race could have the innate ability of Analyze Dweomer at will, or a racial +20 bonus on Diplomacy and Balance and all Craft checks, and it wouldn't affect their Challenge Rating in the least. Because it's no harder to beat such a creature than one without those benefits, yet the creature with those innate qualities is certainly more useful as a Player Character than as an opponent. Ignore Challange Rating calculations when determining the usefulness of a PC race.

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The argument, that NPCs should be rated differently, because NPCs receive less spotlight than the PCs, has its merit, but it doesn't help, if you aren't consequent. A NPC fighter can strike with his weapons in theory unlimited times - "At Will"! - but does it maybe a dozen times in the single combat, where he meets the group. His "at will" ability is seriously crippled, but he is still rated the same as the PC fighter with the same level.

Also to consider: What is the difference between an at will-ability, which allows to fire a fireball with only 1d8 damage and the use of a longsword, which does 1d8 damage? Not that much.

And your argument, that there are abilities not useful in combat, is easily countered, that one can have campaigns, where no violence is used. Just because an ability isn't useful in every situation, it doesn't need to be rated differently or even as zero. In a political campaign, your above race would come really handy.

Edit: I forgot to mention, that in UK's CR-system the CR equals the ECL - also handy.

Edit: You know, you seemed to completely misread my post above, you assumed I was saying that non-combat benefits are unimportant, I was saying exactly the opposite, yeesh. Re-read it. I was telling you that ECL is normally higher than CR because ECL considers more factors, not just combat effectiveness. BTW, being able to fireball for 1d8 damage at will is more useful than a long sword, because trolls and such don't regenerate fire damage, and monsters with Damage Reduction don't ignore fire damage. End Edit.

.......You do know, don't you, that the Dungeon Master's Guide has around half a page describing the difference between Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level sort of stuff, right? I'm not talking about NPCs being judged differently for lack of spotlight time, that's not even relevant to my argument at the moment. Perhaps you only have the SRD though, and thus couldn't have read the DMG's Adventures, Campaigns, and most especially Rewards chapter.

CR is strictly a measuring system for how tough an opponent is likely to be in combat, under completely normal circumstances, with no unusual advantages or disadvantages in situation, against a party of 4 player characters with an equal number of levels in PC classes, specifically one fighter, one cleric, one rogue, and one wizard. The DMG explains as much.

But Player Characters are more than just combat machines, and they face challenges besides battle. Their ability to cross ravines and steep cliffs, negotiate with the Thieves' Guildmaster for safe passage through their turf, talk the dragon into not eating them because they can offer valuable services for only a pittance, and sneaking past the goblin warrens without alerting the 200+ goblin berserkers that would like very much to spit them over an open fire and eat them, are also very important abilities. A PC is made up of more than just combat stats. Their other abilities matter, and have an influence on how good the character is. That's why characters don't get infinite skill points to spend on Craft, or infinite bonuses on Diplomacy, or all kinds of nifty cantrips at-will just to make life convenient and easy outside of battle.

I'm not presenting house-rules in this particular post. The DMG explains it too. CR is not the same as ECL. CR is for judging a monster's, NPC's, or PC's combat ability under normal circumstances. ECL is for judging how useful and effective the PC is overall, considering the wide range of things an adventurer tends to deal with, not just hacking/blasting through monsters. So ECL tends to be higher than CR. A Level Adjustment may be lower than the CR, but the total Effective Character Level is always equal to or higher than the Challenge Rating.

The suggestions I made in my post above are valid and fair based on both the DMG's guidelines and suggestions, and by what monster races get for their ECL/LA/HD in the Monster Manual. Go ahead, check the 3.5 System Reference Document at Wizards of the Coast's website, and examine a few monster's entries there, especially some humanoids such as bugbears, and giants such as ogres and ogre magi.