Please Review: Barrowshire Lore Keeper

Lord Morte said:
Quick question: Is this for a 3.0 edition game? Because Mage Armour strikes as pointless if you can strap on magical chain shirts as the bard can in 3.5.

This is for a 3.5e game and yes, you are right, why have Mage Armor when you can wear a Mithril Shirt. There may always be times when you may not be able to wear armor, or when your allies or people that you are protecting do not have armor. (You also free up your arcane caster from having to memorize it) This does give a core wizard spell but at a very late level because if they want it they will have to switch it out at 8th level or higher to get it. Its usefullness will be limited unless there is good teamwork and planning from the party.

Lord Morte said:
Then drop them to d6s or d4s. The bard only has d6s anyway and the background doesn't really support the improved resilience of a larger Hit Dice.

I don't really want to do this but after looking at the Complete books last night I am thinking I have to. d8's make the class too strong. They can take Improved Toughness for extra hit points. So, d6 it is.


Lord Morte said:
Clarity is good :) In that case Lore Keeper's Song is a pretty useful ability. As for the teamwork song idea, perhaps increasing the bonus provided by aid another checks is a way to go?

How about this:

Lore Keeper Song A lore Keeper with 11 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to greatly increase bonuses that result from teamwork or cooperation amongst allies. Actions that require teamwork find themselves easier to accomplish within the rhythms of this song.

Allies that are targets of a successful Aid Another action gain a +2 Morale bonus in addition to the +2 for the Aid Another action for a total bonus of +4.
Allies that recieve a flanking bonus gain a +2 morale bonus to hit in addition to the normal +2 bonus for flanking for a total of +4.

What do you think?


I added a little something to Lore Keeper's Insight:
A Lore Keeper with 13 or more ranks in a knowledge skill may reroll

and this to Lore Keeper Knowledge:
Lore Keep gains a use per day per Lore Keeper level if he has 8 + Lore Keeper level or more ranks in a knowledge skill.

to tightly bind the knowledge skill to the class. I have updated the last stat block with this change.
 
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My tis quiet around here.

With Lord Morte's help I have managed to make some changes. :D There must be someone else out there who has a comment. Surely this prestige class cannot epitomize perfection... or can it? :uhoh:

Hello! Any one else [echo]else[/echo]
 
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Forgive me

Forgive for changing the title of this thread. I am hoping to gain a few more comments. This is potentially a little underhanded, so please forgive me. :uhoh:

It changed from: "Barrowshire Lore Keeper"
to: "No one has the courage to comment on this prestige class?"

Again a big thanks to Lord Morte!! :D

Changed back! :o
 
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I'm also in the PBP game and just now checking out this thread.

So the concept is a bard

1) focused on knowledge
2) focused on team boosting powers
3) good at keeping themself alive (that is there big power for rerolls).

As I said in the OOC discussion, I think if you just add powers to the base bard class that is by definition unbalanced against the bard class.

Tweaking the BAB down to 1/2 is a good balancer because they do not have a physical attack focus.

Whether that is enough to justify the extra spells being known in addition to the lore powers and extra music boosting I'm not sure (I have no previous experience playing with bards in 3e) but I think so. The spells don't come up that often because of xp requirements for vision, gp requirements for glyph, and the rarity of attacks that require regeneration. So that leaves mage armor as a mostly teamwork spell for companions with no armor (monks, sorcerers, etc.) or everybody when you go up against incorporeal undead, and explosive runes which is a trap spell but fits into lore/knowledge in the same way glyphs do.
 

I have reduced the basr attack to that of the wizards and I will ponder the Spell List issue. I will leave it at added to spell list and still check if it might be OK to add to spells known.

Thank you for your comments! :D
 

More Changes

Lore Keeper Spell: I will leave it at spells are added to Bards spell list and they may learn them as normal.

I am thinking of reducing the spell casting advancement a little bit: nothing for the first level.

The other change that I am thinking about is instead of giving them strong Reflex and Will - giving them strong Fort and Will. I was thinking about this because I want them to have a feeling of strong mind and body (a resilience) in a determined pursuit of knowledge. Increasing the HD is unbalancing, but changing the save will give me that flavor and the mechanics to support it without being unbalanced.

I was also just thinking of a change to Lore Keeper Insight to be able to be used 1/d for every knowledge skill that the Lore Keeper has 13 or more ranks in. Again, this greatly ties the use of Knowledge to the class.

What do ya think? :)
 
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Prestige Class for reference

Here is the prestige class and feat as is stands now:
[sblock]
[h1]Barrrowshire Lore Keeper (Prestige Class)[/h1]

Barrowshire Lore Keepers are dedicated to the pursuit and use of knowledge. The shirefolk that walk this path typically pick a subject area to specialize and then do everything they can to learn as much about it as possible. Often this involves trying to find out some fact or item of significance that is hidden away in ruins or in some estate. Their pursuit and understanding of their subject area(s) gives them unique insight into the world and the way that it works.

Lore Keepers are most often found in the company of others that are helping them to acquire knowledge or artifacts of significance to their lore. Lore Keepers know that they cannot be good at everything and that they need help. Help from those that can heal, sneak, fight and other things that they cannot. They use their bardic music abilities, knowledge, and spells to help their companions. Their more aggressive spell list and understanding greatly helps their chance of survival.

Hit Die: d6

[h2]Prerequisites[/h2]
Race: Halfling
Alignment: Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral
Skills: One Knowledge at 8 ranks and another knowledge at 5 ranks
Perform (Oratory) 8 ranks; Any 2 other Bard skills at 5 ranks
Must speak Commmon, Halfling, and Draconic
Be able to cast 2nd level bard spells which must include:
Comprehend Languages (1) and Cure Moderate Wounds (2)
Feats: Barrowshire Lore Keeper*(see below) and Obscure Lore (Complete Adventurer)
Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music, Born in Barrowshire

[h2]Table[/h2]
Saves
Lvl BAB F/R/W Special Spells per Day

1 +0 +0/+2/+2 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge,
Lore Keeper Knowledge
2 +1 +0/+3/+3 Lore Keeper Spell List +1 spell caster level
3 +1 +1/+3/+3 Lore Keeper Song
4 +2 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Training +1 spell caster level
5 +2 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Insight +1 spell caster level

[h2]Class Skills[/h2]

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier

The Lore Keeper's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (All taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha) Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis)

[h2]Class Features[/h2]
All of the following are class features of the Lore Keeper:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Lore Keeper gain no proficiency with any weapons or armors.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new Lore Keeper level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class, and that meets the casting requistes. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of lore Keeper to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

Bardic Music: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your effective bard level and number of uses per day.

Bardic Knowledge: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your Bardic Knowledge.

Lore Keeper's Knowledge (su): A Lore Keeper has an uncanny knack for remembering information and always seems to know the answer. A Lore Keeper may reroll any knowledge check and add his Lore Keeper class level to the roll, a number of times per day equal to his Lore Keeper class Level. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known. A Lore Keep gains a use per day per Lore Keeper level if he has 8 + Lore Keeper level or more ranks in a knowledge skill.

Lore Keeper Spell List: Barrowshire Lore Keepers are adventurous and determined and have found the need for other spells to help them in their endeavors. You add the following spells to your list of bard spells and may learn them as normal.
1 Mage Armor (Wiz 1)
2 Explosive Runes (Wiz 3)
3 Glyph of Warding (Cler 3)
4 Prying Eyes (Wiz 5)
5 Regenerate (Cler 7)
6 Vision (Wiz 7)

Lore Keeper's Song (su): A lore Keeper with 11 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to greatly increase bonuses that result from teamwork or cooperation amongst allies. Actions that require teamwork find themselves easier to accomplish within the rhythms of this song.

Allies that are targets of a successful Aid Another action gain a +2 Morale bonus in addition to the +2 for the Aid Another action for a total bonus of +4.
Allies that recieve a flanking bonus gain a +2 morale bonus to hit in addition to the normal +2 bonus for flanking for a total of +4.

Lore Keeper Training:
Lore Keepers are versatile and rugged trying to find that extra edge to stay ahead of their oppenents. You may select from any of the following:
Bardic Feat: Any feat that has Bardic Music and Perform as a requisite, and that you meet the requisites for, or from the following: Arcane Strike (CWar), Battle Caster (CArc), Combat Casting, Dash (CWar), Endurance, Extra Bardic Music, Extra Slot (CArc), Extra Spell (CArc), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Jack of All trades (CAdv), Lightening Reflexes, Open Minded (Cadv), Practiced Spell Caster (CArc, CDiv), Weapon Finesse, Versatile Performer (CAdv), Appraise Magic(CAdv)

Lore Keeper's Insight (su):A Lore Keeper's incredible understanding of his subject area(s) and obscure lore manifests as a prescient moment(s) where he realises that his choice can change things. Once per day a Lore Keeper with 13 or more ranks in a knowledge skill may reroll, or force an oppenent ot reroll, one roll that directly affects the Lore Keeper and add or subtract his Lore Keeper Class Level to the roll. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known.
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Well according to my Class Construction Guide, I get the following:

Barrowshire Lore Keeper: Hit Dice d6 (7), 6 Skill points per level (7), 33 class skills (14), Moderate BAB (6), two Good saves (9), No weapons or armor (0), bardic knowledge (2), +5 levels spell caster (20), Lorekeepers knowledge (2), Lorekeepers spells (3), Lorekeepers song (2), Lorekeepers Trainging (2), lorekeepers insight (4), Requires halfling (-2), requires trivial alignments (-0.5), requires two skills at rank 8 (-4), requires three skills at rank 5 (-3), requires spells casting at 3rd level (-2), requires two feats (-1), requrires 1st level bard (-0.5), requires birth in barrowshire (-0.5). Total: 65

Compared to the other 5 level prestige classes in the SRD, this is much stronger. Their average is about 41 points.
 

Silly thing won't let me post and edit

The thing I've noticed about most of the many classes I've seen is they are desgned to give one bonus feature per level (a feat, special ability, +1 to spell casting), when classes start giving two bonuses per level, the class becomes much stronger than others. One obvious suggestion is to turn this into a 10 level PrC.
 

Great Googley Moogley that's cool! Thank you very much, tjoneslo! :cool:
So, in light of 'The Guide' I have reduced the class skills to 17 which reduces the cost from 14 to 8 (Total 59 [65-6]). Reduce the spell casting by 2 levels (1rst and 3rd) which reduces the cost from 20 to 12 (Total 51 [59-8]). Still a little strong but a little bit less than the Thaumaturgist.

Better?? :uhoh:

Do you know what the stats are for a 7 level prestige class (average, min, and max).

Thanks again!

How much would the above change to Lore Keeper Insight change things changing it from 1/d to once per day per Kowledge that has 13 or more ranks? Or How about removing the benefit of a bonus equal to their Lore Keeper level on Lore Keeper Knowledge and Lore Keeper Insight?
 
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