Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

Would you allow this paladin character in your game?


DonaldRumsfeldsTofu said:
Assumably if he ever visited a house of prostitution like that, he not only would make not make his patronage there, but would do his best to dismantle it, same as if he visited a store where the workers were "abused, exploited, and trapped in a cycle of dependency if not actually enslaved" *coughWal-Martcough* or anywhere where the workers are "abused, exploited , and trapped in a cycle of dependency, if not actually enslaved", not because their trade involves sexual intercourse, but because they're being abused, exploited, and trapped in a circle of dependency if not actually enslaved. (Which is often a very common byproduct of the wage system that really has nothing to do with the trade you're in. But I'm starting to boarder on getting into politics) But that's not what the piece of fiction said. It said it was a nice brothel with happy prostitutes and a happy madam. Therefore, he committed no violation of his good alignment.

excellently put good sir.

He is still a paladin, so it is assumed that if he is visiting a brothel he would look into its ownership/running. He's not going to go to just any brothel, and as DonaldRumsfeld said, if he did find a brothel that enslaves and forces its prostitutes into servitude, then he would have to do his best to free said prostitutes, and if he didn't, then yes he would lose his palidinhood. But simply visiting a brothel does not constitute an unlawful act. As has been mentioned time and again, what is his specific code of behavior? What are the local laws like?

Now I don't really agree with the swearing and excessive drinking, but drinking itself isn't necissarily bad, once again leading to his specific Ethos. Now the swearing I don't agree with at all. Paladins are supposed to be pillars of virtue yes, and yes I just condoned going to a brothel, but swearing is disrespectful to those you are swearing at. And however you look at it, swearing is not virtuous. It may not be evil, but it is not virtuous.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Turanil said:
I must second this. All of this assumption that the paladin going to the brothel is okay, is because the depicted brothel is a clean place where the women do a job like any other. But as said Elder Basilisk the truth is that prostitution has never been a choice / activity that was good for the women who performed it (with maybe the sole exception of courtesans who make it for extremely high prices, and even there not sure its the best of activity...). In a realistic setting, brothels are bad places where girls are almost enslaved.

In a realistic setting?

In a "realistic" setting, there are no paladins that can channel the power of their god. There are no wizards flinging fireballs. There are no fighters going out and killing dragons. So many people are taking a Paladin in a fantasy game, and then conviniently changing the senario to a real life senario, simply to prove that he wouldn't work.

Be consistent here people. D&D allows for a certain amount of creative license. If the DM says it is a good clean brothel, where the women are paid, and not slaves, than that's the way it is.
 

DM-Rocco

Explorer
Well, in my campiagn, I would have to say no, in fact that is what I voted on, but it is an interesting story. I would consider the merit of it and perhaps come up with a different class that was like the paladin, like a low level prestiege class or something and let you do that. While I don't think paladins have to not swear and all that, I think they should lead by example and this guys attituide is more comparable to a chaotic good ranger if anything.


I don't think a paladin needs to be a goodie two-shoes, but this guy is very rough around the edges. It would be comparible to having the school stoner enroll in a police program and then get hired as a cop, it just doesn't fit.
 

Sigg

First Post
I agree...it seems to me that most of the acceptance for this guy as a paladin is because people just don't like the "goody-goody" paladins, and are enamored with this NYPD Blue version of a paladin simply because he goes against the formula. IMO he just doesn't cut the mustard. Willingness to fight and die for a cause do not alone a paladin make, plenty of plain 'ole fighters fit that bill as well. A paladin is the chosen servant and champion of a LG god and those chosen to serve are the elite of the god's faithful, blessed with much more than a strong sword arm and big cohones. They represent their patron to the public, as well as fighting for his causes. When I read the story I didn't get "realistic" from this guy, I got "arrogant, self-righteous, and fatalistic". Where's his hope? Where's his faith? How can he bolster the faith of his people and give them hope for the future if he has none?
 


shilsen

Adventurer
Some of the posters on this thread complained that the additional fictional pieces I added after the first one are only a manipulation on my part to make readers more likely to view Cedric as a paladin. Others said that they enjoyed the fiction and would like more. If you’re one of the former, please skip the following post. If you’re one of the latter, enjoy! If you’re neither, then pick a side, darn you! This is a paladin thread after all. We only want black-and-white thinking here ;) !
 

shilsen

Adventurer
The Siege

“…can take our lives, but they’ll never take … our FREEDOOOOOMMM!!!”

Sir Orion raised his mailed fist in defiance of the enemy beyond his walls as his cry reverberated off the battlements. After a dramatic pause, he lowered his arm and looked down at the gathered soldiers, hoping for (and half expecting) a resounding cheer. He did get a cheer and a round of applause to boot, but it only came from Sir Gahon and the other young hotheads standing to the side, puffed up with pride with their dreams of chivalry and glory. The soldiers simply stood there stolidly, with expressions ranging from boredom to sheer, barely controlled, fear of the hordes without. Old Horstein, in the front row, leaned forward and carefully spat a stream of tobacco onto the ground before straightening up to lean on his pike again. Feet shuffled behind him, though naturally nobody had the temerity to leave.

Orion’s face did not show it, but his heart fell. We are doomed, he thought, and for all my brave words, they all know it. We’re outnumbered ten to one, and this keep isn’t strong enough to keep them out for more than a day. After that, it’ll be a slaughter. And from the looks on their faces, they’ll be surrendering as soon as the wall goes down – for all the good it’ll do them.

His face showed none of the thoughts as he turned away and headed down the steps to the small podium he’d been standing on. At the bottom, he looked at the young knights, drawing another unwonted cheer from them. But it was the laconic, “Good talk,” from the man standing some distance away from them that momentarily cheered him. Cedric nodded as the commander looked at him and then asked, “Mind if I say a few words?”

“Not at all,” said Orion. Come on, old friend – let’s see some of that magic. Please.

“Thanks.”

Cedric hitched his belt a little higher and trotted up the steps, before making a jaunty little jump onto the podium that drew a couple of chuckles from the crowd. His battered armor made him stand in sharp contrast to the commander in his shining mail, and the comparison was heightened as he plopped down on the platform’s edge, dangling his legs, and then raised a bottle to the crowd, before taking a hearty swig. The chuckles spread into a little ripple, and a couple of whispers started up.

“Ahhh!” said Cedric, after swallowing, “Now that really hit the spot!” He shook the bottle in a mock-threatening manner at the crowd and said, “If any of you bastards let bloody Kurgash’s horde get our booze, I’m really going to be pissed off!” Orion winced inwardly, but noticed that the chuckles were beginning to take on a regular tone. Even old Horstein’s lips were twisting in amusement.

Cedric waved an arm in Orion’s general direction and said, “If our commander doesn’t mind me saying so, I’ve got a little beef to pick with him. He gave you some erroneous information just now. They actually CAN take your freedom. In fact, considering what I know about Kurgash and his need for slaves for his mines up north, I’d say he’s positively looking forward to it.”

Orion’s eyes went a little wide, and he heard angry whispers from Gahon and his men. What the hell are you doing, Cedric? he thought, even as he noticed that the original chuckles had ceased completely.

“Of course,” continued Cedric, without skipping a beat, “Depending on how … er, cute you are, you might find that slavery doesn’t involve dying in the mines. Let’s just say that Kurgash’s ogres like man-flesh. And not just to eat, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.” Despite the claim, Cedric made a crude gesture to illustrate his point. There were a couple more chuckles from the crowd, but they sounded forced. Orion noticed that some of the younger men, including among the knights, had turned a pale shade of green.

Cedric took a quick swig, giving the idea time to percolate. Now think about that before you consider surrendering, he thought, before going on, “Of course – you could easily make sure that you don’t end up as a slave or as Big Harga’s boy-toy. Just get yourself killed tomorrow. Shouldn’t be too difficult to do, actually. Just don’t defend yourself well enough and some hobgoblin will be bloody happy to cut you in half. Sure, it’ll be painful and all for a bit, but then you’ll be dead and won’t have to worry about slavery or freedom or anything like that. Peachy!”

Orion barely managed to restrain himself from rushing onto the platform. What in heaven’s name are you doing Cedric? he thought frantically. If they weren’t panicking before, they definitely will be now! Glaring back and forth at the assembled soldiers, he saw them exchange fearful glances, and ripples of uneasy mutterings began to spread.

The sound of Cedric’s bottle shattering on the stones drew Orion’s attention, and he saw that Cedric was back on his feet. “Unless you’re like me,” said Cedric, looking down at the scared men. “You see – I am a servant of the High Lord. And I’ve got a lot more important things to do than be killed by Kurgash’s trash. Or be a slave. Or, for that matter, get an ogre boyfriend.”

The last comment still drew a couple of chuckles, but Cedric spoke right over them. “I’m guessing that you’re like me. You walk like me, you talk like me, you drink like me – so I’m guessing you think like me. And I think there’s only one thing for us to do. We’re going to kill those bastards.” He continued without a pause, “You see, it’s quite simple. I don’t want to die. And if I’m alive and they’ve got me, I’m better off dead. So I’m just going to have to kill enough of them to make them think I’m not worth the effort. And the same goes for all of you. We’ve got to beat them so bad that they say, ‘Unholy crap – these sons-of-bitches aren’t worth dying for.’ You guys ain’t got to die for the king. You’ve just got to make those guys die for Kurgash.”

To his disbelief, Orion noticed a few nods in the crowd, followed by a couple of rumbles of agreement. One or two weapons were shaken. I don’t believe it! It’s working.

Cedric, meanwhile, had leaned over and beckoned the crowd closer. With puzzled expressions, they shuffled forward until they stood all around the podium. He leaned over with a conspiratorial grin and said, “Plus we’ve got the power. They’re just coming here to get our asses – metaphorically, well mostly, speaking. But we own our asses. And the one who owns the ass has a whole lot more power than the one who wants it.” He waved at the gathered people and said, “Ask any married man here.” And winked.

There was a split second of silence and then guffaws rang through the crowd, followed by a couple of cheers. Orion couldn’t help laughing himself, even as he noticed that Horstein was laughing and nodding his head so hard that tobacco juice was rolling out his mouth.

“So,” said Cedric, “Here’s what we do tomorrow. When Kurgash’s people get here, we give them the finger. And then when they get to our walls, we give them the finger again, only this time we give it to them with the rest of the fist and an arm’s-length of steel with it. And we’re doing that all day, and the next day, and the next … until they go home crying and tell stories about how we’re all such lousy dates.” More laughs and cheers rang out.

“Now I’m going to get off this podium and we’re all going to go get ready to kick some ass tomorrow. Because they may try to take our lives and they may try to take our freedom, but the one thing they’ll never, ever take are our asses! I own my ass, dammit! Who owns your ass?”

Orion almost choked at the rousing cry of “I OWN MY ASS!” that rang out.

Cedric somersaulted to his feet, drawing more cheers. “And are you giving an ogre your ass?”

“HELL, NO!”

“So what are we going to make Kurgash kiss tomorrow?”

“WE’RE GOING TO MAKE HIM KISS OUR ASS!!”

Cedric laughed joyfully and leaped down from the podium, landing on his feet amidst the men, armor ringing out upon him. As he made his way through them, soldiers clapped him on the back and cheered. He reached the edge of the crowd and clapped Horstein on the rear, causing the old soldier to scowl theatrically and wave his pike, drawing another loud laugh from the men around.

Stepping out of the crowd, he walked towards Orion as the cheering soldiers began to disband. “I think they’re ready,” he said with a grin, looking at the commander’s expression. “And don’t worry – the historians will never remember that ‘Kiss my ass, Kurgash’ will be our battle-cry tomorrow. Well, probably not.”

Orion laughed as Cedric clapped him on the shoulder and said, “Now we better go do some planning. I really do want to make that bastard seriously regret ever :):):):)ing with us.” He threw another look at Orion and added, “Metaphorically, of course.” As the grinning paladin turned away, Orion headed after him, feeling hope spring in his breast for the first time in days.
 
Last edited:

Thundering_Dragon said:
A Paladin is not an anti-hero. A Paladin is a Heroes Hero. I would not allow this character as a Paladin. He doesn't have faith, and he doesn't inspire.
He inspired me. And that was BEFORE Shilsen's latest installment ;)

But then, naive chuckleheads have never inspired me, whereas self-aware, intelligent warriors with a good grasp of their situation generally do.
 

Vendetta

First Post
I read the first page, wont read all of this... good lord that's a lot of posts :D

So, answering the first page. Yes, I'd allow it with one minor change. Upon meeting the young lad, I would expect the paladin to be more respectful. Cussing at his does not show honor toward that man. At that point, he's done nothing to have earned the contempt of the paladin and does not yet deserve to be treated thusly. (now later on, who knows)

This, of course, depends on the laws of the area. If brothels are legal, of course (and I think this story establishes that they are, even if not considered appropriate by the general populace.) If prostitution is considered immoral and illegal in the world I was going to be running, then obviously, you'd have to say no.

And no if there were opportunities for youngsters to be involved IRL.
 


Remove ads

Top