Weapon Speed - changing the way BAB works

hello everyone

while checking out a previous DMs of mine Everquest PHB last year, i spotted an interesting concept. basically, you class determines how much of the first column of BAB you get (same here, theres +1, +3/4 and +1/2) but the weapon you use determines how many attacks you get. i really liek this idea, as it helps even (maybe "even" isnt the right word, but this system does add a level of realism, because not only does training reflect the effectiveness of the weapon, but the weapons qualities itself contribute as well) the playing ground for many weapons. (ie, a greatsword, while still doing more damage, would not hit as quickly in this system as a longsword, adn a rapier would be quicker than either of those).

So, anyone have access to the SRD or willing to post tables? Also, any feedback on this? Sorry for this being sorta bland, but i dont have the actual book, adn thus no tables

At mid- to high-levels, base damage is small compared to added bonuses. This system would favor weapons with more attacks too much, in my opinion.

Here's a rant by Sean Reynolds about just the system you propose, plus a few others on weapon speed. He doesn't like the systems, but you may like what he does or come up with ways to get around his (legitimate) criticisms.

Good luck!

I've thought about that myself, and it's an interesting idea.

Here's a new feat that I would be willing to try out as a house rule:

Lightning strike:
Prereq: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
With a light weapon that you also have the Weapon Focus feat for, you gain iterative attacks at a -4 penalty instead of a -5 penalty, to a maximum of five attacks instead of four.

Sean K Reynold's criticism of this was mainly that it doesn't confer an extra attack at all levels, but it still makes the secondary attacks more accurate at all levels.

Things to watch out for: sneak attacking rogues, monks getting yet one more attack per round at high levels.

Ben

fuindordm said:

Here's a new feat that I would be willing to try out as a house rule:

Lightning strike:
Prereq: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
With a light weapon that you also have the Weapon Focus feat for, you gain iterative attacks at a -4 penalty instead of a -5 penalty, to a maximum of five attacks instead of four.

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interesting feat, but i am talking about giving extra attacks based on weapon speed, not through feats. i guess i will have to make up my own BAB chart for specific weapons to show you folks exactly what i mean.

fuindordm said:

Things to watch out for: sneak attacking rogues, monks getting yet one more attack per round at high levels

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Rogues only gain the sneak attack once when it applies in a round. a level 20 Rogue, with 3 attacks doesnt get +10d6 sneak attack for each individual attack, but rather for one of them. As for the monks, i will have to see how this fits into the sceme of things, when flurry of blows is being used. Unfortunatly, i have a System of a Down concert tongiht (yeah, thats unfortunate because i wont be able to fully respond to this thread, thats the ONLY bad thing about that ) so i'll be busy. I'll respond back to this ASAP

Nyaricus said:

Rogues only gain the sneak attack once when it applies in a round. a level 20 Rogue, with 3 attacks doesnt get +10d6 sneak attack for each individual attack, but rather for one of them.

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Um, no. You're confusing the rules about attacking while invisible or multishotting with the rules on general sneak attacking.

If the rogue flanks his opponent, he gets the sneak attack on every attack.

If the rogue is invisible, he gets the sneak attack only on his first attack (after that, he's visible, so they don't lose their dex bonus versus him). If he's improved invisible, every attack.

If he's making multiple attacks with a single roll, like with the manyshot feat, sneak attack only applies to one of them.

And so on.

One way to use 'weapon speed' in a game would be to apply a modifier to all the weapons (the speed factor of the weapon) which would be then added or if negitive subtracted from your init score for the combat. Magic weapon could lessen penalties (maybe they are lighter due to the magical materials used, or what ever). For Example PC A is a great sword weilding fighter with improved init, {trait that gives +2 init}, and 12 Dex for a total init bonus of +7; the greatsword has an init penalty of -5 (for example) thus yeilding a net init bonus of +2.

Yes it seems cumbersome.... yet it seemed to work in 2e campaigns, weapon speed that is.

Oates said:

One way to use 'weapon speed' in a game would be to apply a modifier to all the weapons (the speed factor of the weapon) which would be then added or if negitive subtracted from your init score for the combat. Magic weapon could lessen penalties (maybe they are lighter due to the magical materials used, or what ever). For Example PC A is a great sword weilding fighter with improved init, {trait that gives +2 init}, and 12 Dex for a total init bonus of +7; the greatsword has an init penalty of -5 (for example) thus yeilding a net init bonus of +2.

Yes it seems cumbersome.... yet it seemed to work in 2e campaigns, weapon speed that is.

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In 2e, you rolled initiative every round, so it was a consistent penalty. In 3e, you roll once, at the beginning of combat, and then it's cyclical, so it's not much of a penalty at all, only at the beginning of combat.

DanMcS said:

In 3e, you roll once

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You do?!

I've never used that method, but then I have to admit I structure initiative rolls off the method I experienced as a player - and several of the DMs I played under were launching whatever campaign I happened to be in as a means of becoming accustomed to (then new) 3E. So perhaps they never read that section . . . . And I admit to occationally skimming over areas I already well know, so perhaps that explains it . . . .

Anyway, I've always had init rolled each round, and I've never had trouble with it. I actually would have difficulty understanding doing it another way, as the feat Improved Init and a high Dex are of little use (for an entire encounter! ) if one rolls poorly - and some low dex others without II roll well. Rolling each round such mishaps are both less common and less troubling - and Impr Init is actually worth its weight as a feat (as those without it can't expect to get by on a free ride if they roll well the first round).

DanMcS said:

Um, no. You're confusing the rules about attacking while invisible or multishotting with the rules on general sneak attacking.

If the rogue flanks his opponent, he gets the sneak attack on every attack.

If the rogue is invisible, he gets the sneak attack only on his first attack (after that, he's visible, so they don't lose their dex bonus versus him). If he's improved invisible, every attack.

If he's making multiple attacks with a single roll, like with the manyshot feat, sneak attack only applies to one of them.

And so on.

Click to expand...

son of a gun, you are right. It actually doesnt say that it counts for all attacks, or for each attack in either the "Sneak Attack", "Invisibility" or "Greater Invisibility" descriptions. I had to look at the manshot feat to cross-reference what you said. Someone ed up in the editing department. Anyways, thank you for pointing that out. Luckily, we havent had any level 8 rogues in the party, so the second attack hasn't played a factor yet. I shall have to keep that in mind though, so thansk for the heads up.

after considering what you have all said, i am now fairly certain that adding bonuses (or penalties) to init, adn rolling init each round will probably be the best way of going about this. I want five groups to look like this

Very Fast Weapon (+2) - ie: Rapier

Fast Weapon (+1) - ie: Handaxe

Normal weapon (+0) - ie: unarmed strike

Slow Weapon (-1) - ie: Warhammer

Very Slow Weapon (-2) - ie Ransuer

now, as for the usage of two weapons, the slower one is the one which the adjustment to init is used. This represents the fact that you are only as fast as your slowest weapon. A one handed weapon held in two hands increases one catergory of speed (until Very Fast, thereafter no other increase occures); a two handed weapon attacks at the speed stated. Any weapon which can be affected by weapon finesse counts as one catergory faster in terms of which speed catergory applies (if they are already in the Very Fast catergory, no other increase occurs). I will have to think about how crossbows work, since they already have penalties asscociated with them; other than that, anything else you think need to consider?? comments please; this has been a very informative thread for me