Soulknife - Lightsabre type weapon attribs

Hey everyone

so i am a big fan of the soulknife, and im using it as the class for a main sort of peacekeeper force in my custom world. I have been thinking about tweaking them to give their weapons more of a lightsabre type quality, at least for the highly trained ones

The sorta "laser" effect where it slices through pretty much anything, maybe as a feat or something they learn to control with their minds at high level.

so im thinking at really high level, their control over the blade becomes so strong, they can make it "laser sharp" and hence slice through things close to effortlessly, or "widen" the mindblade so that it will interact with things by causing resistance etc.

Anyway im looking for help on working out how to impliment this idea and how it can be balanced out, even if it means being something for epic characters. Im not too great with the weapon attributes but im thinking Vorpal items have some of the properties im looking at.

Anyway be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks everyone

If they are high level, you might be able to go the feat route. Another poster came up with a list of feats for creating, adapting, etc the mindblade (concept). A fighter could take Wild Talent (so he could take further psionic feats), the Create Mindblade, then further feats for more potent mindblades, dual mindblades, ranged attack mindblades / arrows, etc. All that's missing from what you need, if I recall the feat list correctly, is a feat to allow the mindblade to bypass some hardness (thus allowing it to more easily damage objects). Let me see if I can find the link . . . .

Found it:

http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade.php
http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade_feats.php

The first lists the idea in a nice outline with other potential abilities to attach to a mindblade (flaming, etc - links to d20srd.org as I recall). Any click on the outline leads to the next page - a list (alphabetical, so not quite as nicely set up as the outline) of all the mindblade feats. Clicking on one moves down the page to the description. I saved both pages, then copy / pasted in notepad so that it became one page. Granted, clicking on the outline usually just moves to the very bottom of the page, but at least the other links work . . .

Hey thanks for those links, they are awesome. Have ppl playtested it for balancing?

Brilliant Energy really comes across as the weapon enhancement closest in some ways to what im looking for, but doesnt really fit in other ways. I like that it ignores AC and such, but that it cant hurt undead or constructs misses on the "Laser blade" feeling.

I might have a look in SWRPG and see how they treat lightsabres, see if i can somehow use that to combine with the system on that page you sent me. Really thanks a ton thats an awesome resource there.

Would i be able to get a copy of that .txt version you made of it?

Also so you know, this is something im doing for NPCs in my world, since im worried about unbalancing i wouldnt put this into a PCs hands, at least not until i have alot more experience with DMing (at the moment im pretty green)

Thanks for the help

M

It was an html file, not a text file. I emailed it to your listed email address. Basically, I saved the two pages, opened them in different notepads, then copy pasted the page with the outline into the page with the feat descriptions. Then I saved the final file as an html file. Now I have my own home computer referrence of them.

In the email I sent you I also postulated a few more feats not yet listed in any manner on the linked page. It seems the creator of that page has not yet bought the CPsi, and so ranged options are rather weak. So I created a couple feats to make ranged attacks a bit easier. One simply increases the Throw Mindblade range to 90 ft (thus not stepping too hard on the toes of those that use bows and xbows), while the second allows for an additional range increment each time it is taken (thus making it more akin to normal ranged weapons). Also, I noted the idea that Far Shot should apply (1.5x range), and as it requires yet another feat (PBS) I do not see that as unbalancing the game. Any attempt to build a ranged mindblade character will be feat heavy, making it difficult indeed to create a character that can follow many options. (Range and 2WF are so feat intensive that I doubt many could - or would - invest in making a character good at both.)

I also added the idea of a new feat that treats objects as if less hard when struck by the mindblade. Basically, hardness is treated as -4, + (-1) per additional mindblade feat (including Form Mindblade, to it is really a minimum of -5). Also, any bonus to AC from natural armor, armor, and shields is reduced at one-quarter the rate of the bypassable hardness. So a character with Form Mindblade, this feat, and seven other mindblade feats would be able to bypass up to 12 hardness - and would treat AC as up to -3 less by reducing the benefit of natural armor, armor, shields as necessary.

It would not be quite as good as Brilliant Energy (after all, dragons and other higher level creatures often have 10+ or even 20+ natural armor), but it would be good at lower levels and for less armored opponents. Also, I would treat constructs as objects in this regard - and thus treat their natural armor as hardness, reducing it accordingly. It would still not be very good verse undead, however, for while many undead have low natural armor, incorporeal undead often have deflection instead, and many higher level undead are able to wear armor and carry shields.

Mindblades that acquire the "adamantine" special material quality provide a decent but imperfect approximation.

Jurble said:

Brilliant Energy really comes across as the weapon enhancement closest in some ways to what im looking for, but doesnt really fit in other ways. I like that it ignores AC and such, but that it cant hurt undead or constructs misses on the "Laser blade" feeling.

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Brilliant is awful. Possibly the worst (value-wise) weapon enhancement printed.

If you're looking for the 'slices through blast doors' quality, add a feat as follows:

Mind-blade o' Slicing Through Stuff
Psionic Feat
Prereqs: Improved Sunder, Able to manifest a Mindblade
Benefit: Your mindblade ignores objects hardness scores

Hey guys thanks for the great input. I like the adamantine idea, it seems like a straightforward way of going for this lightsabre kinda effect.

Is things of hardness over 20 rare/common in DnD? Like by beng able to cut through anything with up to hardness 20 mean yourcutting through rock/metal etc or wood etc etc.?

On that last suggestion:

Mind-blade o' Slicing Through Stuff
Psionic Feat
Prereqs: Improved Sunder, Able to manifest a Mindblade
Benefit: Your mindblade ignores objects hardness scores

Im kinda worried about overpowering this ability, even though im not going to let players play these chars since im worried about unblaancing the game.

Also would this have an affect on armour? So does adamantine cut through armour easier? dreduce Armour AC or soemthing?

Nyeshet thanks a ton for those mindblade feats and email version. So many cool options. I love soulknife as a class but they havnt been so easy to find material on. Now theres a bunch i can play aroudn with

I also had an idea for an invisible mindblade to use with rogue characters. Will have to look into that one after i get the lightsabre idea working

M

I'm not sure about how valuable an invisible mindblade would be. Recall that the mindblade can look like anything: a normal metal blade, a glowing irridescent crescent, a shimmering fog, a light absorbing black shadow, a faint mist in a vaguely weapon style form, etc. So just make it appear like a normal glove and punch the guy! It will seem like a normal punch that packs a punch! (pun intended) Sure, some will likely think the glove is magical (if for no other reason than the effect of the punch), but then it doesn't even need to look like a glove. Make it look like dripping water covering the hand - as if the hand were only momentarily taken out of a pail of water. Then, after the attack, let the water 'dry up' / vanish. Or perhaps a condensation on the hand would be better?

As stated, the mindblade can look like anything, have any shape, any color (including none), any translucence (from transparent glass like to non-translucent metalic), anything at all. You could arguably make it look like a rubber chicken or even a arc'ing bolt of lightning. When using 'Throw Mindblade' you could literally have it appear as if the Soulknife threw a lightning bolt.

As it can look completely inconspicuous (a glove, a wet hand, a faint mist, a shadow) then what value is there in making the blade 'invisible'? I'd go so far as to state that so long as you allowed a Spot check (DC 20) you could conceiveably make it so transparent a mist like appearance that it was effectively invisible - or very nearly so.

Hmm, on second thought, the glove would likely also seem 'off' - perhaps too intense or dull in color, perhaps a little too well fit, etc. Maybe a DC 20 or 25 Spot check to notice that it seems a little off? How about a Spot check of DC (10 + half HD + Cha) against whatever you make the mindblade look like if you are trying to disguise it - including translucence verging on invisibility?

As for a better hardness / nat armor bypassing, I would just offer another feat later on. Note that that single feat prior stated was, as you stated, enough for lower levels. So at higher levels, if they want more utility, have them pay a feat for it. So perhaps the "Improved" version of the feat increases the hardness bypassed to twice the number of mindblade feats held, and the natural armor / etc bypassed is based upon one third (instead of one-fourth) the hardness bypassed. So instead of a PC with 15 mindblade feats bypassing up to 18 hardness and up to 4 natural armor, armor, or shield (total), they would instead bypass up to 30 hardness and up to 10 natural armor, armor, or shield (total). That is a very notable increase, well worth a mid-level feat.

It would have to have a pre-req that would keep it from being taken prior to, say, 10th or 12th level. Any lower and it would be too powerful. Only the fact that various ways of bypassing hardness are becoming more common at these levels keep me from pushing this up to, say 15th level. Granted, by level 15 most creatures with nat armor likely have 15-25+ nat armor, and most foes with armor likely have enough enhancement to it - along with their shield - such that this is not enough to totally negate their armor / etc bonus(es) to AC. It is, however, enough to give the soulknife a good chance of getting through, despite their BAB. And I note that several 'fixes' and alternate Soulknife classes have a high bab. If you take the feat route, in fact, you can easily (and probably will need to) be a fighter - with high BAB and numerous feats.

This Improved version may not be making Touch AC, but it's benefit should be significant enough. Most crystals, stones, and metals have no more than 40 hardness. This will aid notably against such for serious mindblade users. The bypassing of some natural armor, armor &/or shield bonus to AC is an added benefit. It is not enough to reduce such to meaninglessness, but it is enough to notably make it easier to fight against creatures with higher ACs due to armor - natural or manufactored. Recall what I stated about constructs - I would treat their natural armor as if a hardness.

Ok i see what you mean about the invisible mindblade. I think id have a house rule that if your mindblade is lets say a longsword (doing longsword dmg) it needs to maintain some similar characteristics as a longsword. I mean if you have a glove covered in water type look, i wouldnt give the reach of a longsword?

Anyway so in feat terms are you suggesting 2 or 3 feats? I can see

[quote = "Feat 1"]
"Mindslice"

Objects are treated less hard when struck by a mindblade.
Hardness is treated at -4 + -1 per additional mindblade feat (inc. Form Mindblade, hence min -5)
Bonus AC from Nat Armour, Armour and Shields is reduced by 1/4 the bypassable hardness

Example: So a character with Form Mindblade, this feat, and seven other mindblade feats would be able to bypass up to 12 hardness - and would treat AC as up to -3 less by reducing the benefit of natural armor, armor, shields as necessary.[/quote]

Feat 2 said:

Improved "Mindslice"

Increases the hardness bypassed to twice the number of mindblade feats.
Nat Armour/Armour/Shield AC reduced by 1/3 of Hardness bypassed

Example: So instead of a PC with 15 mindblade feats bypassing up to 18 hardness and up to 4 natural armor, armor, or shield (total), they would instead bypass up to 30 hardness and up to 10 natural armor, armor, or shield (total). That is a very notable increase, well worth a mid-level feat.

Prereq: Something to prevent it being taken pre 10th/12th lvl

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Soudns Really good, maybe thinking another feat similar at higher levels like 17 or so which lets say trible mindblade feats and 1/2 AC? How does soemthing liek that sound in balancing terms? Im ot so good at the that side of things so im really guessing here

Only the fact that various ways of bypassing hardness are becoming more common at these levels keep me from pushing this up to, say 15th level. Granted, by level 15 most creatures with nat armor likely have 15-25+ nat armor, and most foes with armor likely have enough enhancement to it - along with their shield - such that this is not enough to totally negate their armor / etc bonus(es) to AC. It is, however, enough to give the soulknife a good chance of getting through, despite their BAB. And I note that several 'fixes' and alternate Soulknife classes have a high bab.[/quote]

soudns good, by mid levels having some stronger ability to cut through things lightsabre style with your mindblade sounds good to me

If you take the feat route, in fact, you can easily (and probably will need to) be a fighter - with high BAB and numerous feats.

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Only thing that worries me alittle is requiring to take fighter levels? I mean if its a metagaming thing where you can but its nto required to have a decent char thats ok. Do you think using 2/3 feats like this youd have to take fighter levels to make it worth while?

Feat 3 said:

Mind-blade o' Slicing Through Stuff
Psionic Feat
Prereqs: Improved Sunder, Able to manifest a Mindblade
Benefit: Your mindblade ignores objects hardness scores

Click to expand...

What do you think fo this. I mean how big is it in balancing to ignore hardness scores? IM guessing that would be a really powerful ability?

Im lacking the rules books atm coz im overseas so i was wondering how hardness actually works in terms of gameplay. Not the rules exactly (attack roll vs hardness isnt it?) for it but in terms of in a campaign, how could you see this being overpowered for PCs or such?


Thanks so much for the help!

You're not required to take fighter levels. Any class with a high BAB will be nice, as will any class with multiple bonus feats. The UA feat variant of the Rogue, for instance, that gains feats instead of Sneak Attack would be near perfect, despite its medium BAB. It would have some nimble abilities that would aid it in surviving, plenty of skill ranks, and enough feats to make good use of the many mindblade feats. The number of feats is the one issue with making the mindblade both classless (ie: any PC can make use of it, regardless of class) and versatile (can be used for ranged attack, 2WF attacks, defense, &/or various other useful options).

So the Fighter, having a multitude of feats and a high bab, is a good 'obvious' choice. The UA variant feat-rogue is a nice back up (many feats, decent in other respects as well), but the bab is secondary.

The problem is that mindblades - as a system of feat chains - are feat-intensive. In designing official classes, few have been given extra feats 'to keep from stepping into the fighter's territory' or some such reason. Thus only the fighter has the best of both worlds: high BAB and feats. Others can made do - quite well, in fact, depending on the needs of the character design, but the Fighter is the 'obvious' and most likley choice.

Another possibility is the Hexblade. He receives only a third as many bonus feats as the fighter, but a high BAB combined with any number of bonus feats makes for a nice choice. The hexes might even work well with the mindblade concept. The Knight also has high BAB and a few bonus feats - combined with challenges and other potentially useful specials.

Some others lack a high bab but have enough bonus feats to perhaps make the difference. The feat variant Rogue has medium bab but ten bonus feats. The Psychic Warrior has nearly as many bonus feats, as well as various psionic powers (instead of the specials and skills of the feat-variant rogue). The Scout only has half as many bonus feats, but it does not need to lose Skirmish to gain them. Combined with fast movement and its other specials, the Scout is a real possibility for mindblade usage.

Basically, so long as the class gains bonus feats and has at least medium bab it is potentially able to use the mind blade feat system with more than minimum ability.

Of the classes that currently come to mind (from the PHB, PHB2, XPH, all the Complete books, but none of the Race books as I do not have them), the current ones that come across as best suited for using mindblades (as a feat system) are the following:

Fighter, Hexblade, Knight, Psychic Warrior, *Rogue, and Scout
* (UA feat variant only)

None others gain bonus feats and have at least a medium BAB. The first three have high bab and some bonus feats. The Fighter has the most, but the others have other potentially useful specials to consider. The latter three have medium BAB but either numerous bonus feats (the first two) or numerous useful specials (the Scout, and arguably also the Psychic Warrior).

Note that all the classes mentioned - except the psychic warrior - would need to take the feat "Wild Talent" in order to choose Psionic feats (such as the initial feat "Form Mindblade"). Thus, the Psychic Warrior actually "gains" a feat, in that they do not need to spend one before taking "Form Mindblade."

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As for the question of Hardness, it is mostly used when determining how hard it is to break things. So the question in regards to balance might better be stated as "How often - and how useful would it be in your games - do PCs break things such as doors, wall panels, chairs, ropes, chests, chains, etc? Also, how often do they attempt to sunder another's weapon? That is probably a major issue right there. Granted, magical enhancements grant something like +X to hardness and +(X * 10) to item hp - X being equal to their enhancement. So a +2 sword has +2 to hardness and +20 to hit points. It is difficult to break even with a lowered hardness (due to the hp), but the lowered hardness does make it easier to "hurt" as hardness is similar in some respects to DR X / -- (like a barbarian's DR).

If your players often use Improved Sunder or use their weapons to tear down doors, "open" chests, cut ropes or chains, break planks of wood, smash a stone idol or other object, etc then a feat that makes it easier to bypass hardness is more powerful. If your players rarely Sunder or use weapons to cut, break, or smash objects then the feat is remarkably less powerful - and possibly even underpowered.

Note, however, that my idea of (my) feats treating bypassed hardness as also equal to bypassed natural armor in the case of constructs would be nearly the same as making the attack an almost touch attack against constructs (or objects), while merely somewhat useful when dealing with other creatures. So if constructs are often used in your campaign, then this would be far more powerful than typical. Balance is a precarious issue as the position of its fulcrum varies from situation to situation.