Skills That Should be Handy for an Adventurer...But Aren't in Actual Play.

I have arranged the results based upon number of votes (and saved this to a txt file named "Value of d20 Skills").

Query: Which Skills Should Be Useful But Are Not?

(I broke the rows based on differences of more than 5 from the prior skill.)

Comments on the breakup and the skills are below:

Essential Skills
Spot
Search
Listen
Hide
Move Silently
Tumble
Disable Device
Open Locks

These skills are, not surprisingly, seen as the essential skills for a party of adventures. No other skills had so few votes on this poll, and the next group (beginning with Knowledge) is seven votes beneath this block of skills.

I doubt anyone was surprised by these results. These skills are typically maxed out by those that have them as class skills.

Useful Skills
Knowledge
Concentration
Bluff
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Perform
Ride
Jump
Survival
Diplomacy
Use Magic Device
Climb
Gather Information
Swim
Speak Language
Handle Animal

These are utilitarian skills mostly. Some are arguably essential - Knowledge, Concentration (esp for casters), but most others are typically only useful if you have a class that specializes in their use (Perform for Bards) or as utility skills (Climb, Swim, Bluff, Ride, etc). They make life easier and are good second choices (and sometimes first choices, depending on the class / skill) for maxing out if you have extra skill points after maxing (or nearly maxing) the Essential Skills (provided any were class skills, of course).

Note-worthy Skills
Balance
Heal
Sleight of Hand
Disguise
Intimidate
Escape Artist

If you have skill points left over after maxing or nearly maxing your Essential and Useful skills, these are often the ones to receive the remaining skill points. These help round out a character, but most of them can be done better by even lower level spells. If magic is uncommon I expect many of these skills to see more use, actually.

Craft and Profession can possibly be placed in their group, although their ranking was notably less. Like these skills, Craft and Profession are often used to round out a character - especially in terms of background. For that reason they are often seen as NPC skills, although some PrCs make notable use of them (such as Peerless Archer, I think, that requires ranks in Craft (arrows / bows).

Not-Quite-Useless Skills
Craft
Profession

These are the typical NPC skills. They fall by a wide margin from the next group up (and even by a wide margin from each other - and from those skills beneath them), but they can have some usefulness - if only for backgrounds and some rare PrCs. See Note-Worthy Skills, above, for more info, as I briefly considered adding them to that group of skills.

Apparently Useless Skills
Forgery
Decipher Script
Use Rope

Appraise

These skills are seemingly useless. Speak Language was Useful, while Decipher Script was Useless. Forgery is apparently rarely if ever used, and Use Rope is - I presume - used mostly for fancy knot tying and the synergy bonus to Escape Artist (a minor Note-Worthy Skill). Appraise was considered so useless that it resides on the absolute bottom - a full thirty points below the next lowest skill, Use Rope.

These skills are seemingly never used or seen as without any real use. Placing ranks in these skills is proably more of a handicap than an investment in a skill for future use. PrCs that require such might be considered as scraping the bottom of the barrel in handicapping the N/PC taking the PrC.

In some ways the results surprised me. I didn't think that Speak Language would do so well, but then it only requires a single rank, so perhaps that is its charm and usefulness. A +2 bonus in Int grants a similar ability automatically, as I recall. Knowledges were a pleasant surprise, as I tend to group them with Profession and Craft skills, but then I recalled that each Knowledge type grants one or two synergy bonuses to other skills or abilities (such as Turning or Bardic Knowledge). Decipher Script seemed odd, but then I recalled that at least one low level spell makes it redundant, as any party will have at least one caster, and such a useful spell will almost certainly make the list.

Anyway, what are others' views on this list?

Nyeshet said:

I have arranged the results based upon number of votes (and saved this to a txt file named "Value of d20 Skills").

Query: Which Skills Should Be Useful But Are Not?



Craft and Profession can possibly be placed in their group, although their ranking was notably less. Like these skills, Craft and Profession are often used to round out a character - especially in terms of background. For that reason they are often seen as NPC skills, although some PrCs make notable use of them (such as Peerless Archer, I think, that requires ranks in Craft (arrows / bows).

Not-Quite-Useless Skills
Craft
Profession

These are the typical NPC skills. They fall by a wide margin from the next group up (and even by a wide margin from each other - and from those skills beneath them), but they can have some usefulness - if only for backgrounds and some rare PrCs. See Note-Worthy Skills, above, for more info, as I briefly considered adding them to that group of skills.

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I've never used Craft points, but apparently they make Craft more useful. However, the ability to make most objects is pretty useless when you buy magic items in a magic shop. The exception is probably the ability to make arrows and other perishables.

Apparently Useless Skills
Forgery

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This one is so hard to make useful. Why not just get proper ID? In medieval times, most characters couldn't read anyway.

Decipher Script
Use Rope

Appraise

These skills are seemingly useless. Speak Language was Useful, while Decipher Script was Useless. Forgery is apparently rarely if ever used, and Use Rope is - I presume - used mostly for fancy knot tying and the synergy bonus to Escape Artist (a minor Note-Worthy Skill). Appraise was considered so useless that it resides on the absolute bottom - a full thirty points below the next lowest skill, Use Rope.

These skills are seemingly never used or seen as without any real use. Placing ranks in these skills is proably more of a handicap than an investment in a skill for future use. PrCs that require such might be considered as scraping the bottom of the barrel in handicapping the N/PC taking the PrC.

In some ways the results surprised me. I didn't think that Speak Language would do so well, but then it only requires a single rank, so perhaps that is its charm and usefulness. A +2 bonus in Int grants a similar ability automatically, as I recall.

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I don't think that works with magic headbands in 3.5, Int-bonus races have restrictions (they have to have them for balance reasons), and boosting your Int is expensive and not valuable for some concepts.

Knowledges were a pleasant surprise, as I tend to group them with Profession and Craft skills, but then I recalled that each Knowledge type grants one or two synergy bonuses to other skills or abilities (such as Turning or Bardic Knowledge). Decipher Script seemed odd, but then I recalled that at least one low level spell makes it redundant, as any party will have at least one caster, and such a useful spell will almost certainly make the list.

Anyway, what are others' views on this list?

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I like your analysis. I'm not too surprised at the results. I'm a bit surprised Diplomacy and Intimidate did that well. I posted the D20 Modern version here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=175903

Eric Anondson said:

A fair DM should also tell PCs what the "major bases" are, IMHO.

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I do let them know. Does that mean I am a fair DM?

Something that I have thought of, but not yet implimented, is a Party Max. Skills sheet, a list of the skills, and which PCs are good at them.
'Okay, the cleric and Bob, George, and Charlene are unconcious. Who has the best Heal skill?'
'Bob, George, and Charlene.... figures.' (This happens so often that it is not even funny... and one of the reasons that the D&D group has come to love the Bard.)

The Auld Grump

There's still a lot of imbalance in the skill system.
I see a lot of "I Hide." *rolls a 20* "he still sees you" and "I'm on first watch and alert.." *rolls 20* " You don't see anything...except an arrow that hits you in the face.."
Then there's the inevitable: "I search for traps around the door the last group of enemies avoided" *rolls moderately high* "you find nothing" "but I know there's got to be something there..I search again" "the trap goes off.." though that's more DM than skill related.

Yeah, that's more a DM issue than a skill system issue.

On the other hand, I also do not like using Nat 20 as an auto-success or Nat 1 as an auto-failure. The exception to this is when I use 2d10 instead of 1d20. When there is only a 1% chance of auto-success or failure and a far greater likelihood of average results, then allowing for auto-success / failure on a die roll is more acceptable than when there is an even chance of auto-success / auto-failure, or, in fact, any other roll (as it is pure random with a 1d20 roll).

Yet even working with the core system, the DM should either be limiting the challenge to within the level ability of the players (in which case the rogue would be succeeding on a 16+ anyway - in which case auto-success at 20 would not matter as much), or should be placing such warnings in place that the players are well aware of the fact that they are outmatched before ever entering the dungeon. If the players continue anyhow - well, the DM has done his part. If the players are that foolish than their PCs deserve what is coming to them. CR +8 over party level does typically grant XP for a reason, after all.

Nyeshet said:

as I recall. Knowledges were a pleasant surprise, as I tend to group them with Profession and Craft skills, but then I recalled that each Knowledge type grants one or two synergy bonuses to other skills or abilities (such as Turning or Bardic Knowledge)

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Much more important than the synergy boost, at least in our campaign, is that specific Knowledge skills are associated with knowledge about certain monster types.

We try to avoid mixing player and character knowledge. I as a player knew that we were fighting Slaad, but since my character had zero ranks in Knowledge: Planes, the Paladin of the party was left to his own devices trying to understand why his Smite failed against these demonic/devilish looking fiends.

Its definately a useful place to put skill points when, on the first time you face a "new" foe you can alert the party to its immunties/vulnerabilities.

Kmart Kommando said:

my very first 3.5 rogue died in a filling room trap right after rolling a natural 20, with maxxed disable and MW picks, and still missed the DC by 2.

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Pitting a party against a trap which, from the sound of it, is mathematically insurmountable by that party sounds like bad DM'ing / encounter design ...

If you're the DC's are unreasonable, then of course the skills will seem like a waste

On the other hand, I also do not like using Nat 20 as an auto-success or Nat 1 as an auto-failure. The exception to this is when I use 2d10 instead of 1d20. When there is only a 1% chance of auto-success or failure and a far greater likelihood of average results, then allowing for auto-success / failure on a die roll is more acceptable than when there is an even chance of auto-success / auto-failure, or, in fact, any other roll (as it is pure random with a 1d20 roll).

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Since there are actually no rules for auto success or failure in Core, then you are doing well. Rolling a 1 on a skill check just means that you are 19 less than if you rolled a 20. If you have enough bonuses and ranks, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

One of the big things that I think people forget is taking 10. A guard on watch takes 10 on his spot and listen. Or he rolls IF there is something to see or hear. Not make a roll at the start and then go from there.

Kelleris said:

Decipher script, on the other hand, if you only use it for deciphering languages, requires only one person to be able to use comprehend languages, and it hardly ever needs to be a constant ability. In fact, most of the time you can afford to wait until the next day for the wizard to prep comprehend languages, so you don't even need to have the capability to possibly acquire the ability all the time. There's a huge difference there between Decipher Script and regular combat abilities or survival abilities that only help if everyone has them.

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Sorry I didn't come back to this thread sooner--Real Life interrupted.

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. While it's true that only one party member *needs* to have the Comprehend Languages spell to render this skill redundant, not all players think first of optimization on the character or party level while creating or levelling their character. Some players actually like to consider the role playing aspects of their character first and foremost.

A player like that might sink many points into Decipher Script because it fits his/her character concept. That player might then reasonably expect the DM to sprinkle the campaign with opportunities for their character to use the skill. I play with people like that. I run games for people like that. And I am a person like that.

In Ghostwind's recently ended campaign, there was a PC who was a scholar. He had absolutely no physical combat ability, but he was extremely useful to the party because of his ranks in various "useless" skills. Ghostwind, as any good DM should, gave Brian opportunities to use his character in the way he wanted to.

I have a player who consistently creates characters that focus on knowledge, appraise, decipher and other similar skills. That's what he considers a fun character. He's an excellent roleplayer. Why would I not accomodate him? And in fact, I've found that having to prepare for a game with a PC that is focused on the so called "useless" skills really pushes me as a DM to create an interesting story. When Mike's character takes a book off a shelf, and finds that it is written in an obscure dialect of ancient Valossan, he keeps the book and takes it back to the inn to study. He wants to know what the book says. In response then, I have to create some ancient Valossan mythology or history or prophecy.

I wouldn't trade this player for one who prefers low intelligence bruiser characters. I consider his fondness for "useless" skills to be a huge bonus that helps me create a richer campaign world. And that creates more fun for everyone at the table.

I think the main problem is that there is such easy availability of spells such as fly, spiderclimb, levitate, water breathing, etc. that make many skills virtually superfluous. In my next campaign, I'm planning to either remove many of these spells or make them much higher level in order to increase the need for skills.