WotC Replies: Statements by WotC employees regarding Dragon/Dungeon going online

Grimstaff · Apr 24, 2007

Why is everyone so quick to blame WotC? Does anyone think mighty Hasbro had a part in all this?

Picture a shadowy, torchlit inner sanctum at Hasbro. A couple of pencil-thin, pale WotC employees are ushered before a great corporate magnate.

Magnate: What's this I hear about these Dangers and Dragoons magazines?

Peons: Um..Dungeons and Dragons, sir. Um, they are doing great. Paizo has really done a good job!

Magnate: Silence! Good job...(mutters). Why did we sell our license for Dumdums and Draggings magazines anyway?

Peons: Um, Dungeons and Dragons, sir. And to be honest, we thought they would die off quickly and some other company could take the blame. But instead, they sell liek 40 or 50 thousand of each every month.

Magnate: Absurd! That money should be ours! Cancel them at once!

Peons: (sputter and whine) but...but...master, no, we love the magazines! The fans love them!

Magnate: Too bad! Kids like computers, right? Why don't we just charge them $20 a piece for a password to look at stuff on your website that you make in-house? That way we make like a million bucks every month and I only have to pay you guys...um what do I pay you guys anyway?

Peons: Just a few thousand a month, Master.

Magnate: Hmm, well, unfortunate. You shall include mandatory advertisements in your product to defray that cost, understood?

Peons: Um, yes, Master. But everyone's going to pick on us!

Magnate: HA HA, very funny. (Stuffs live Maine lobster into mouth and chews for a moment) You're used to it aren't you? I mean you're both Dingbats and Dogbones players, right?

Peons: Um...yes sir...and its Dungeons and Dragons, sir.

Magnate: Well, don't just stand there! Get to work!

Pale WotC employees are taken back out by corparate guards.

End Scene.

caudor · Apr 24, 2007

Kae'Yoss said:
Tell me, are all suckers loyal or does being loyal mean being a sucker?

There's nothing wrong with faith, but blind faith is another matter entirely. Wizards has made too many blunders for me to keep my faith in them.

Well, I can't think of anything bad that will happen to me if I have faith in WotC...even if some of that faith is a little blind at this point. If it turns out I don't like the DI, then I will simply cancel it.

I'm optimistic because I see certain pieces starting to fall into place. It is clear that WotC is taking the DI very seriously. I'm looking forward to it.

Mistwell · Apr 24, 2007

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12204101&postcount=32

This is from Rich Baker, Senior Designer, Roleplaying R&D, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.. He posted it on the WOTC boards, in response to another post (which I have also quoted). It's not highly useful, but I think it's somewhat interesting.

Your source is wildly misinformed. The only correct assertion I can find in your "insider's" remarks is that Wizards expected third-party publishers to produce more adventure material than they actually did.

In response to:

Originally Posted by Anorien Ssirinthil
I wrote this on another thread. But you're right.

Re: Dungeon/Dragon discontinued

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've talked to people in the 'know' who are familiar with the reasons behind the cancellation of Dragon/Dungeon as well as a general contracting of the whole RPG industry. They had this to say.

"The problems is that D&D products sales have been on the decline for more than two years, even their miniatures line has taken a recent hit. Individuals within WotC have regarded the OGL as the main vehicle for this decline. Initially when OGL was first used it was assumed that most 3rd party publishers would create adventures and not sourcebooks/rulebooks. What actually occurred was the reverse. OGL spurred innovation: new Prc's, feats and host of settings and D20 games were created. Initially viewed as a boon for spurring a renewed interest in RPG. WotC soon realized that 3rd part publishers were eroding the market share that WotC previously enjoyed.

After attempting to emulate certain 3rd party products, (complete class series and Adventure Path(i.e. FR Meta-Adventures), various format changes, etc - WotC found that sales were still lagging. So the idea of shrinking the RPG market to better control the flow of revenue was hit upon. Thus when 4th edition finally comes out it will indeed be without an OGL which has been viewed (correctly) as the main precursor for declining sales in the Wotc RPG Brands.

You wont hear much complaining from some of the best known game authors because they too have to make a living off the industry as well as those NDA's that forbid talking about certain products. So you see its not about the 40,000+ buyers of the magazines its really a business decision to help increase revenue."

That pretty much sums it up!

Thurbane · Apr 25, 2007

Ourph said:
I'm not going to argue no one would be upset by that scenario, but, yes, I suspect there would be alot less harsh feelings because it gives the customers the chance to vote directly with their wallet. If the DI succeeds in pulling customers away from Paizo and Dragon and/or Dungeon still fail then at least the loyal periodical customers had a chance to compete. Yanking the license and killing the print magazines is like WotC cancelling the "game" and declaring DI the "winner" by default. A lot of customers perceive that move as "unfair" (to them, not to Paizo).

This mirror's my thoughts exactly...

Khairn · Apr 25, 2007

Mistwell said:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12204101&postcount=32

This is from Rich Baker, Senior Designer, Roleplaying R&D, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.. He posted it on the WOTC boards, in response to another post (which I have also quoted). It's not highly useful, but I think it's somewhat interesting.

In response to:

Unfortunately its the only thing anyone from WotC has said in the last ... what ... 6 days now?

I'm glad that post was important enough to get his attention. Hopefully he will see other posts and questions that might warrant a comment or two.

Hussar · Apr 25, 2007

Gallo22 said:
Where do you get this information from??? :\ From all accounts both magazines were doing very well and making a profit according to Paizo. Both magazines were doing better then they have ever done. This is not just speculation, it's fact.

Thus, thank you for making my point.

Dungeon and Dragon are on their highest point in years. Have been for a while. If the DI succeeded and Dungeon and Dragon stuttered, everyone would be screaming that WOTC is screwing the little guys.

I'm not going to argue no one would be upset by that scenario, but, yes, I suspect there would be alot less harsh feelings because it gives the customers the chance to vote directly with their wallet. If the DI succeeds in pulling customers away from Paizo and Dragon and/or Dungeon still fail then at least the loyal periodical customers had a chance to compete. Yanking the license and killing the print magazines is like WotC cancelling the "game" and declaring DI the "winner" by default. A lot of customers perceive that move as "unfair" (to them, not to Paizo).

Look at the fairly regular hate of WOTC that gets trotted around here. WOTC never produces any good books. 3rd party publishers are better. WoTC is a bunch of suits that don't know about gamers. And that's on a good day when they don't really compete directly with anyone.

Step forward a bit and imagine that WOTC is putting full page spreads in Dragon and Dungeon asking customers to effectively abandon the magazines for the DI. The howling would be immediete and long lasting.

Did they rig the game? Probably. But, then again, why compete with yourself when you own the ball, the court and the stadium?

In all of this, no one has told me what they figure WOTC would get out of letting the magazines continue.

Hussar · Apr 25, 2007

Let's take another hypothetical.

WOTC allows Dungeon and Dragon to continue but doesn't want to compete directly. Not a bad idea I suppose. So, they decide that all DI material will consist of closed content and Dungeon and Dragon will only be able to use OGC.

How long would 3rd party publishers survive in direct competition with Dungeon and Dragon? Goodman Games gets by with its appeal to nostalgia. And, as an added plus, you don't have to have the latest WOTC books to run a GG module. Imagine if Dungeon ran a GG style module EVERY MONTH. Dragon started cranking out OGC lists a la Ronin Arts.

3rd party publishers would take a huge hit as Dungeon and Dragon filled their niche.

Or, conversely, people move away from both magazines in droves because they have no use for OGC material and only want WOTC goodies. Something we already see today. Again, WOTC looks bad because they are screwing over Paizo by not letting them use WOTC material.

There's just really no way for WOTC to compete with Dragon and Dungeon and come out ahead.

I'm A Banana · Apr 25, 2007

Your source is wildly misinformed. The only correct assertion I can find in your "insider's" remarks is that Wizards expected third-party publishers to produce more adventure material than they actually did.

That's probably one of the single most revealing 4e statements I've ever heard.

Y'heard it here, folks: According to Rich Baker, 4e will still use the OGL.

Maggan · Apr 25, 2007

Mistwell said:
In response to:

Originally Posted by Anorien Ssirinthil
So the idea of shrinking the RPG market to better control the flow of revenue was hit upon.

Click to expand...

Great quote, Mistwell! If for nothing else, the thought that someone is claiming WotC would actively work to SHRINK the rpg market to earn more money boggles my mind.

/M

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 25, 2007

There's just really no way for WOTC to compete with Dragon and Dungeon and come out ahead.

This is a false dichotomy.

WotC could have yanked Paizo's license and still continued putting out the print magazine- IOW, not competition but synergy.

A "return home" like that could have had regular updates & rules corrections etc. that improved its value. (Of course, all of the same could be done online...)

In all of this, no one has told me what they figure WOTC would get out of letting the magazines continue.

By continuing the print version you:

1) Don't lose paying customers who will never buy into the digital-only format. People like me- a 10+ year subscriber.

2) Don't alienate extant customers who may be driven away from purchasing your other products. Not me, but I've heard some people on these boards & others expressing opinions like that.

3) Continue to gain income from a profitable product- one that is possibly more profitable than your digital one.

4) Can get your product into places that have no reliable internet access or to people who cannot pay for online services themselves. Some people on these very boards have pointed out that their internet service wouldn't allow them to view an e-zine, live in countries where sites can be blocked by the government (and often are), or don't have a credit card or permission to use their parents' in order to pay for such a service.

5) Have your product in the market in a non-volatile format. You can hack a website, but it would be darn tough to destroy every physical copy of the Dragon shipped from the printer each month.

6) Have your product in the market alongside your other physical products, leading to possible cross-marketing synergistic opportunities- AKA impulse buys. Several people on these boards have claimed that it was Dragon & Dungeon that brought them into their FLGSs every month, which was when they bought other things. For them, no Dragon, no other RPG purchases either.

I'm sure there are other advantages.

WotC Replies: Statements by WotC employees regarding Dragon/Dungeon going online

Grimstaff

Explorer

caudor

Adventurer

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad

Thurbane

First Post

Khairn

First Post

Hussar

Legend

Hussar

Legend

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich

Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator

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