An interesting conundrum with the DI...thoughts?

CharlesRyan said:

I have no further inside information on the cancellation. I'll just say that, given my experience and what I know of the current decision-makers, it seems much more likely to me that the cancellation was an effort to broaden the role of the Dragon and Dungeon brands, not to reduce their competitive effect.

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I certainly understand that WotC doesn't want to reduce the competitive effect of the Dragon and Dungeon brands, but that isn't the same thing as not wanting to reduce the competitive effect of those brands under the aegis of another publisher.

That Paizo isn't coming out with another magazine at this time, and that Paizo is very clear that Pathfinder isn't a magazine, I think that there is reasonable grounds to believe that competitive effect, while perhaps not the biggest factor, is certainly factored into the equation.

While I am not a big fan of Adventure Paths, I will have to say that, as a store owner, the AP format seemed to be increasing sales (and online discussion) of Dungeon at the very least. The success of Shackled City (and where is that Age of Worms hardcover, anyway?) seems to point to factors other than simply broadening the roles of the brands.

IMHO, at least.

RC


EDIT: The fact that I still can't order WotC materials from Diamond Comics Distributers through the Previews catalogue because I'm in Canada, btw, has seriously limited both my willingness and interest in selling D&D products outside of special orders and preorders. You need to do something about that.

Thinking about the competition issue of Dungeon:

In my old group I was one of the two rotating DMs. The other DM had a subscription to Dungeon. He would pull of of his adventures from there. With a couple of rare exceptions he didn't bother buying any other adventures. I, on the other hand, was going crazy at the time trying to find adventures to purchase that would fit into my campaign without major rework (this was in the 3.0 days). I didn't want to use anything from Dungeon because the other DM had probably at the least skimmed his copy of the mag.

Ultimately I think there is room for both a magazine (or e-zine) with adventures as well as individual printed adventures for purchase, but my expectations would be different for each. I would expect the individual printed adventures would be longer, very well written with complex plots, high quality maps, possibly players aids etc. My expectation for the magazine would be for multiple shorter adventures, production quality not as high - crank them out and give me lots of choices for plug-and-play adventuring.

Thornir Alekeg said:

My expectation for the magazine would be for multiple shorter adventures, production quality not as high - crank them out and give me lots of choices for plug-and-play adventuring.

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I really like the way you put that. It made me realize that this is the standard I have in my head for all adventures.

I generally don't buy those big adventure books. In fact, I rarely buy large adventures at all. I've found that it's too hard to constrain the characters within the written adventure, which makes it not fun for me or them. There is also the value problem in that once I've run a module, I can rarely ever run it again because I've been gaming with some of the same players for nearly a decade now. I don't want to spend $20 for a throw-away product.

What I absolutely love is small adventures that I can mine for details and which I can adjust to suit my game easily. These need to be priced to where I don't feel cheated if I use them once and then basically throw them on the shelf never to be seen again. I would much rather buy either a small and inexpensive module or a larger book with a series of separate adventures. For instance, when I saw Goodman Games "The Transmuter's Last Touch" for $2.00 in the store, I snapped it up because it was kobolds and it was cheap enough that I wouldn't feel cheated if I only used a piece of it. I also recently purchased "Adventure I" from AEG because it was a collection of 24 adventures for $15.

My hope is that the Digital Initiative (whatever form it finally takes) will provide me with access to a multitude of small and inexpensive adventures that I can easily drop into my campaign. They need to be priced where I can "fire and forget" -- meaning I can use them once or mine them for material once and then be comfortable with the fact that I will probably never get to use them again.


To answer the original poster's comments: I don't believe that the DI will create competition between DI and printed modules for me. I am going to buy PDF over print and I am going to buy small and inexpensive over the big modules that have a price point high enough to make them worth printing and distributing.

Scott_Rouse said:

We are continuing to publish adventures in book form. Last look at the 2008 schedule had 6 adventures on it for a total of 544 pages of content.

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That is just awesome news. (Though, just as an aside, AFAIC the "FL" series are not adventures. *ahem* ) Great, great news, though. I buy adventures pretty much exclusively these days, and all the WotC adventures have got my purchase (with the longer hardcovers being my favorite).

Razz said:

2007 was ripe potential for more regional books and other FR books...like a "Beyond Faerun" book or a "Faiths&Pantheons 2" or a "Giants of Faerun" and such...but here's to hoping 2008 has better stuff for FR.

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I'm still waiting to see detailed geographic info on Lantan, Nimbral (really, all the island kingdoms, including Tharsult and Mintarn) and Sossal - the last 3 completely ignored regions of the Realms.

But, as a huge FR fan, I'm in no rush to see more FR products. If Dragons of Faerun and Mysteries of the Moonsea are any indication, I'm not looking forward to much for FR. Bleh. It's been butchered enough as it is by inappropriate novel events (then jammed into a game product), authors with questionable knowledge of the Realms, the ridiiculous timeline advancement, and more.

Jumping on the FR bandwagon I'd love to see a regional sourcebook for the Moonshae Islands. Pretty please.

SiderisAnon said:

There is also the value problem in that once I've run a module, I can rarely ever run it again because I've been gaming with some of the same players for nearly a decade now. I don't want to spend $20 for a throw-away product.

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While adventures generally are "throw-away product", the economics of them are not necessarily that clear cut.

For example: the "Shackled City" hardcover costs $60. When my group ran through the campaign (from the magazines, so we even missed out one of the chapters), it took us 11 months of weekly gaming, with sessions averaging 6 hours or so of gaming. There were five of us (four players and myself).

So, that works out at less than 5 cents per person per hour.

I've found that it's too hard to constrain the characters within the written adventure, which makes it not fun for me or them.

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This, of course, is a major concern. If you're not using much of the adventure, or not finding it fun, then it doesn't really matter how the economics work out.

delericho said:

For example: the "Shackled City" hardcover costs $60. When my group ran through the campaign (from the magazines, so we even missed out one of the chapters), it took us 11 months of weekly gaming, with sessions averaging 6 hours or so of gaming. There were five of us (four players and myself).

So, that works out at less than 5 cents per person per hour.

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There's the justification for complaints people have about things like "rules bloat" and combat taking longer in 3.x. They are adding value to the game by prolonging the time it takes to actually complete an adventure!

Erik Mona said:

Dungeonland appears in "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk," so you'll get your wish (at least briefly) a lot sooner than you may have imagined.

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Marry me.

Shadeydm said:

Arrg, I had such High hopes for this product now it sounds like another GH parody which is not what my favorite setting needs at this point.

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Dungeonland/Land Beyond the Magic Mirror are part of Gygax's vision for the dungeon. That's not parody, that's a very welcome back to basics.

SiderisAnon said:

I really like the way you put that. It made me realize that this is the standard I have in my head for all adventures.

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Check out Goodman Games' The Adventure Begins - 20 1st level adventures in one book. And they've just announced The Adventure Continues, which is 20 4th level adventures in one book.