Helm of Opposite Alignment ... Think "A Clockwork Orange"

der_kluge said:

A wand of poymorph costs 21,000gp and has 50 charges.

As mentioned, a helm costs 4,000gp. 50 helms would cost 200,000gp.

For nearly a 10th of the price, it'd be cheaper to just turn 50 people into chickens.

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And then, you could eat them! Sure, it's inhumane, but really, we have to think of the vengeful, grief-stricken, and hungry relatives of their victims first.

Alternatively, you could use the chickens to feed the poor through state-sponsored soup kitchens. And really, we have to think of the poor first.

Government-supplied school lunches... the mystery meat at the state child labor factory's cafeteria...

God, I LOVE Lawful Evil societies.

Felix said:

Another thought to follow up on the idea that the victims might not be satisfied with the criminal being Helmed and then released:

The victims are satisfied by what they think has happened to the criminal. If they attend a public execution and see the [Major Image] criminal hanged, then they're going to be satisfied that justice has been served.

So this Helm need not be public. It doesn't even need to be known outside of a few key people.

Or perhaps there really is only the one warden who wants his wards to turn to redemption, but is tired of the institutionalization of all the prisoners; so he brings a few key ringleaders in for questioning and they all mysteriously leave with new outlooks on life while retaining command of their gangs.

[second glass of whisky... going to stop typing now ]

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And... we have a campaign: The Dirty Dozen 2.

It's an evil PCs campaign, but all of the PCs now have good alignments. They're the disposable secret agents of the fantasy kingdom, looking to work off their debt to society. Who will stay reformed? Who will backslide? Who will be turned into a mystery meat meal in the LE enemy kingdom? Tune in next week....

roguerouge said:

And then, you could eat them! Sure, it's inhumane, but really, we have to think of the vengeful, grief-stricken, and hungry relatives of their victims first.

Alternatively, you could use the chickens to feed the poor through state-sponsored soup kitchens. And really, we have to think of the poor first.

Government-supplied school lunches... the mystery meat at the state child labor factory's cafeteria...

God, I LOVE Lawful Evil societies.

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I want to reconsider being in your game...

krissbeth said:

I want to reconsider being in your game...

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How else did you think that pirates were going to end up being the heroes? Seriously, when given the choice of playing in a pirate campaign, who wouldn't think, "Oh, the big bad must be LE cannibal magocracy with a taste for chicken!"

Bayushi Seikuro said:

I do see a campaign, run properly and with players who are interested, where it takes on a whole 1984 approach.

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...in Riedra, Eberron.

Nothing like having that mandatory view screen IN YOUR HEAD!

This concept, or forced alignment 'rehabilitation' seems very in line with Riedra.

I have seen this both done to and done by pcs in my campaign.

There's a great little science fiction novel called Helm. It's a device that can literally change your mind. It can program you to like green beans, become a Calvinist, give you a past as a fisherman in Crete, or pretty much anything else. At the start of the book, it describes Earth civilization self-destructing within a few years of the device's invention since now there is a way to flawlessly and completely convert someone to your point of view.

It's one reason I don't use the Helm in my campaigns; it's original purpose is a 'gotcha' magic item, especially for the few characters that must maintain a particular alignment. Put in on, hah hah you're not a Paladin anymore, roll up a new character. And lose a level.

green slime said:

No, but it means societies, as the modern cultural entities that they have swollen to become, are not good.

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Societies are made Not Good because the use or threat of force is Evil? Or because the use or threat of force can never be Good?

Celebrim said:

The first is that if you ask me to make a valuation of what is right and wrong here, I'll have to explain it,...

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Well, sure. If you venture an opinion one is usually asked why.

...I have to think about the weaknesses and the strengths of the culture in question...

...I don't know its nature nor is it to my knowledge known to science, and even if I'm asked to imagine an item that can override the violition of the being in question, I don't know what the consequences of that would be...

...I'm not so certain of the validity of what I believe to pronounce judgement on this thing....

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But your answer seems to be couched in unsurety and relativism. Other than that you would want willing participants and extensive study, I don't clearly know what you think. *shrug*

Well, that supposes that we have free will to begin with.

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Not at all. If free will exists, then the Helm robs an individual of it; I suggest so does saying his actions are determined by his environment and not himself. If free will does not exist, then neither the Helm nor environmental determinism have anything to steal. In both cases the Helm is able to steal exactly as much as determinism: free will in one case, nothing in the other. Which is what I had suggested.

If free will exists, then the Helm has an associated cost to the Helmed, but the change is more likely to be permanent. If free will does not exist, then the Helm steals nothing, but the change is likely a temporary one.

Umbran said:

the system meddles with the powers of the spiritual realm, and so those who are concerned with those powers will be concerned.

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What do you think a forced alignment shift would do to a person's soul? How would you run it?

Say, for example, that a powerful cleric of Bane were Helmed and now he is earnest in his atonement for his past Evil deeds. Can he truly redeem himself?

The Helm creates a compulsion that can be removed by mortal magic, and the soul restored to its original state. What does this mean for the Banite cleric who earnestly and fervently desired atonement, but was targeted by a Miracle cast by one of his Banite superiors? Is he re-set to Evil? Would an Atonement cast during his time of Chaotic Goodness affect the result? Would any atonement taken while under magical compulsion rate as earnest?

And if the Helm is mortal magic, and can be removed by mortal magic, could not the magical effect end with the target's death, leaving the soul now free to return to whatever awaited him before he was Helmed?

Perhaps Good churches would eschew this method on the grounds that because it is a compulsion, the subsequent atonement can never really hold onto the person's soul, and so by Helming a prisoner, you deny them the ability to ever choose Good and redemption on their own, thus damning their soul to wherever it was going before you Helmed them...

I think the chaotic powers (who support personal freedom and rights) would be staunchly against such stuff. The lawful ones would like this notion. The neutral ones would at least question it - some would end up on each side of the fence. And anyone against whome the trick was being used would be against it.

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I agree that this Helming to convert would work best in a non-standard setting where there is no parity between the powers of the various churches; a theocracy of one religion might consider using this method, depending upon its views towards the rights of the condemned and the state of their souls afterwards.

so the basic answer as to why a government wouldn't do this is that the darned thing becomes a political nightmare.

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To be sure. And a great way to get PCs to fight and destabilize a Good government; after which the Evil government (former PCs' employers) rises and really shows them innovations in destroying free will. *twirls moustache* Ha ha.

Felix said:

But your answer seems to be couched in unsurety and relativism. Other than that you would want willing participants and extensive study, I don't clearly know what you think. *shrug*

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There is a good reason for that. I don't clear know what I think either, and so naturally my answer is couched in uncertainty.

It is however NOT couched in relativism. I certainly do not think all answers are equally valid. There is probably one best answer. But, I don't know what that one best answer is, and to be honest I'm not even sure I can tell a good answer from a bad one. The reason for that is somewhat complicated. I think the best way I can answer it is approach the question from a different angle.

What do you think a forced alignment shift would do to a person's soul? How would you run it?

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To be honest, I think it would kill it. I think that a forced alignment shift would be the equivalent of smashing a glass vase, melting down the peices, and reshaping it with an unloving hand to something else. I think it would be the most brutal thing I can imagine short of actually destroying a soul, and while less violent would be more cruel. I think that at the moment it happens, former you ceases to exist permenently and that you can never go back. I think you are reborn as something which would have been abhorrent to your former self, that would not be the you you were, but since you aren't your former self you love yourself as you love your own flesh. Only, terribly, your new self has been given the illusion of being another self by having the memories of the former self scrawled into it and that most terrible of all it wouldn't contain the moment where former self agreed to become new self and baby stepped its way as close as it could to that and I think that this would increase the brutality of the moment - the difference between making love and rape, between martyrdom and murder. I think you would say, "I'm not the person I was.", and you really would literally not be the person you were.

To the extent that I even understand what I just wrote, and frankly I don't, I'd run it like that.

But I assure you, I don't actually know what would happen and I can only guess at it. Given what I think actually happens, I'd be very skeptical of excercising that power if it was granted to me even with the intention of doing good. I'd consider it a form of execution. The only time I can even imagine its justifiable is when the life of the person is justly forfiet anyway, in which case it is probably no more cruel than the alternatives - life long imprisonment or death.

And I think society would need some special ritual for dealing with that fact that you've got the same body walking around, but a different identity. I suggest cleansing ceremonies, renaming ceremonies, mandatory entry into some form of service organization, or whatever to help society understand that change. I think that's where you think I'm being relative, but if you see the purpose behind all my suggestions you'll see that I'm just trying to communicate, and language is relative to the hearer. But the meaning I'm trying to convey is absolute.