Alternate Warrior-Mage base class

Originally posted in a discussion in the 4E forum, I figured I'd cross-post here for more detailed analysis and feedback.

The idea was to create an integrated 20-level warrior-mage class that would provide greater flexibility of application than say the duskblade or UA battle sorcerer, but be better integrated and useful as a single class than equivalent the min/mixed PrC combinations while still remaining balanced with single- and multi-classed characters. Think BD&D Elf, only balanced.

Warrior-Mage class said:

HD: d8

Skill Points: 2 + Int per level X4 at 1st level

Class skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int) and Swim (Str).

Weapon Prof: All simple & martial

Armor Prof: Light armor, medium armor, shields (except tower shield)

BAB: Medium (as cleric)

Fort: Poor
Ref: Poor
Will: Good

Abiliites:

1st: Armored Caster (ignore 10% ASF), Spellcasting Option (Wiz or Sorc), Spellcasting level 1
2nd: Weapon Focus, Spellcasting level 2
3rd: Scribe Scroll or Eschew Materials
4th: Spellcasting level 3
5th: Combat Casting, Spellcasting level 4
6th: Arcane Channel (Focus Weapon)
7th: Spellcasting level 5
8th: Armored Caster (20%), Spellcasting level 6
9th: Greater Weapon Focus, Spellcasting level 7
10th: Weapon Specialization, Spellcasting level 8
11th: Spellcasting level 9
12th: Spellcasting level 10
13th: Arcane Channel (full attack)
14th: Bonus feat, spellcasting level 11
15th: Spellcasting level 12
16th: Armored Caster (30%), Greater Weapon Specialization
17th: Spellcasting level 13
18th: Spellcasting level 14
19th: Armored Caster (40%)
20th: Spellcasting level 15

Armored Caster: At 1st (and subsequent) levels, the warrior mage may ignore up to a maximum percentage of arcane spell failure chance. This applies only to spells cast from warrior-mage levels.

Spellcasting option: At 1st level, the Warrior-Mage chooses if he will cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer. This determines the key ability for spellcasting (Int or Cha), determines if spells must be prepared or cast spontaneously, and determines the table used for spells known and spells per day. Once chosen, this cannot be changed. Warrior-Mage levels do not stack with other arcane spellcasting classes when determining caster level, spells per day, etc.

Spellcasting level: At each indicated level, the warrior-mage has spells known/per day as a wizard or sorcerer of the indicated level (depending on the spellcasting option chosen). Warrior-Mage levels do not stack with other arcane spellcasting classes when determining caster level, spells per day, etc.


Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc: Per the feat. These must all be applied to a single weapon type. The warrior-mage may not take weapon specilization as a feat gained through character levels.

Scribe Scroll/Eschew Materials: The warrior-mage chooses one of these bonus feats at 3rd level.

Arcane Channel: Per the duskblade ability. This applies to the warrior-mage's focus weapon only, but is not limited to melee weapons.

Click to expand...

Ends up with BAB +15 (+2 to hit and +4 damage from bonus feats, though) and CL 15 with 8th level spells arriving at level 20 (assuming a wizard progression). Not as "optimal" BAB and CL-wise as some of the warrior-mage paths that can be done with prestige classes, but there should be enough perqs to encourage sticking with the same class progression.

I thikn it's fairly closely balanced against duskblade, trading melee capability for greater spellcasting ability. Free Weapon Focus/Specialization make up some for the medium BAB over time, but only with a single weapon. There's probably some re-balancing that should be done, too, to reduce the amount of breakage that could occur when mixed with certain feats or prestige classes. But then a highly competent power-gamer can probably break any set of mechanics, so it may not be worth worrying about too much.


Balance analysis:

[sblock]
Vs. Fighter:
- Lower HD (-21 HP on average)
- Lower BAB (gives up +5 BAB and 1 iterative attack)
- Worse Fort, better Will save
- Fewer feats/abilities with less flexibility (4 combat feats, 3 arcane feats, 2 special abilities that scale vs. 11 fighter bonus feats)
- Less weapon flexibility (only able to specialize in a single weapon)
- Broader skill list
- No heavy armor or tower shield
- Spellcasting
Overall: Probably mroe attractive than a single-classed fighter.

Vs. Wizard (assumes wizard progression)
- Better HD (+44 HP on average)
- Better BAB (+5 BAB, third iterative attack)
- Same Save
- 2 fewer arcane feat options, but 4 combat feats and two special abilities including casting in armor
- Armor proficiency and martial weapon prof
- Slower spellcasting progression
- -5 caster levels, no 9th level spell access
- No familiar
- Broader skill list
Overall, probably balanced against a single-classed wizard

Vs. Sorcerer (assumes sorcerer progression)
- Better HD (+44 HP on average)
- Better BAB (+5 BAB, third iterative attack)
- Same Save
- Adds 3 arcane feats, but 4 combat feats and two special abilities including casting in armor
- Armor proficiency and martial weapon prof
- Slower spellcasting progression
- -5 caster levels, no 8th or 9th level spell access
- No familiar
- Broader skill list
Overall: probably balanced, but a bit more attractive compared to pure sorcerer ve pure wizard

Vs. Battle Sorcerer assumes sorcerer progression
- Same HD, BAB, Saves
- Slightly broader skill list
- Adds medium armor and all martial weapons
- Adds 3 arcane feats, 4 combat feats, 2 special abilities
- No familiar
- More spells known/per day, but slower progression to higher level spells
- -5 caster levels; no 8th/9th level spells
Overall: probably balanced, depending on the value of the 5 caster levels vs the additional abilities.

Vs. Cleric
- Same BAB
- Same HD
- Worse Saves
- -5 CL, no 9th level spells
- No domains or turn undead, (3 special abilities cleric vs 4 combat feat, 3 arcane feats, 2 special abilities)
- No heavy armor proficiency
- Martial weapon proficiency
- Weapon focus/specialization
- Vastly different spell list
- Both cast in armor (except heavy for the warrior-mage)
Overall: Cleric has roughly equivalent melee abilities and more spell development so is probably more powerful in the end, but the WM can make up in blasting ability. Close match.

Vs. Duskblade
- Same HD
- Worse BAB (-5 BAB and one less iterative attack), made up slightly by focus feats
- Worse Saves
- No neavy armor proficiency
- Similar casting in armor, but gained later
- No quick cast ability or spell power (2 arcane feats probably balanced against spell power)
- Broader spell list, higher level spells, and quicker access to higher level spells, but fewer spells per day and down 5 caster levels
- Same arcane chanelling except not limited to melee, but initial ability gained later
- Virtually identical skill list
Overall: Better in net spellcasting power & flexibility but worse in focused melee and integrated spell/melee ability. Pretty close overall.


Vs. Fighter10/Wizard10 multiclass (assumes wizard progression)
- Same BAB
- Better Will, worse Fort save
- Better HP on average (~+20)
- No heavy armor/tower shield
- +5 Caster levels & +3 spell levels
- Equal feat/special abilities -- including highly useful casting in armor
- No familiar
Overall: Much better than the pure multiclass -- but the pure multiclass is as sub-optimal as you can get.

Vs. Optimized Fighter/Wizard/PrC mix
- Lower BAB (best mixes get +17-+18
- Lower caster level (best mixes get 17-18 with 9th level spells)
- Weapon Specialization
- Similar special abilities (depends on the specific PrC mix)
- Similar, perhaps better HD (depends on specific PrC mix)
- Worse saves
Overall: Weaker than a 20-level fully min-maxed PrC mix, but better integrated.[/sblock]

Since you moved the topic here (fully justified, too), I apologize for taking a bit longer for puzzling together my idea. I must add that I didn't do ANY balancing analysis, or any ponders about how it would stand up to those other classes, since I'd simply use it in the stead of all those other attempts.

I'm simply going to attach the .doc file instead. I hope nobody will mind me using a few illustrations from other books I cribbed from Google, I simply love to place some pictures into my class descriptions so they don't look naked. Don't want to publish it after all. If the pictures could cause problems, please remove the document.

Nice document. Our concepts are similar, with some slightly different tradeoffs. I like how you've incorporated some appropriate and flavorful abilities. I particularly like the "Slice through spells" idea. I think your approach is definitely more interesting than mine, even though there are many mechanical similarities, plus you've successfully avoided "dead levels" in a more interesting way than my concept.

I think the balance between the two options is pretty close, personally. Very well done!

Thanks for the compliment, but I basically did what I speculated on in the thread this originated in. I simply took the Duskblade and the Mageblade from Arcana Unearthed, adjusted some ability levels to spread it out a bit more, generalized the mageblade's "athame" to incorporate ranged weapons a la Arcane Archer, added the armored caster percentage from Spellsword (I think it was from there) and used the "caster spell progression" we talked about. It was more a big "D20 puzzle" and any original idea of mine, to be frank. With so much stuff the various D20 supplements offer, it's very easy to patch something together to fit exactly what you want without the awkwardness of multi-classing or patch-prestige classes.

Glad you like it, though.

From one fighter-mage fan to another, this is awesome!

My similar baseclass was a warrior-mage. You have a VERY well-thought-out example of a warrior-mage. It's very well worth running, especially due to the balance testing. Good job!

Heh, looks like the typical problem with alternate base classes, Olgar...lots look, but few comment. I guess 4E has everybody hold their breath for what Mearls & Co. come up with for that "problem".

I was thinking about a simlilar idea over the past few days after reading about how the true martial arcanist base class hasn't really been done to the satisfaction of many.

My working solution is in looking at the Gestalt idea in Unearthed Arcana which results in a character that's effectively one level higher than normal. So... A Gestalt Fighter/Wizard.

The trick is to tone it down to where it's balanced both with the core 3.5 fighter and the core 3.5 wizard.

I want to keep it at the full BAB progression of the fighter. Afterall, the Paladin keeps the full BAB while adding divine powers and spells. The problem is that I want to keep the spellcasting closer to the high end, as well.

So... What needs to be removed from the Gestalt Fighter/Wizard to bring it back into balance with the other core classes? And, is it possible to do this while keeping access to ninth level wizard spells?

Suggestions...

1. Drop familiar
2. Drop Heavy Armor Proficiency
3. Cut Spells per day in half but keep access to each spell level at the normal wizard levels.
4. drop the bonus feats from both classes... then combine the lists and award a bonus feat at first level and then every 3rd level.
5. hit dice = d10
6. skill points per level = 2
7. limit the list of weapon proficiencies to Unearthed Arcana's Simple Weapon Group Proficiency plus 3 other weapon groups.
8. Add ability to cast arcane spells in light and medium armor w/o arcane spell failure chance (with light shields).

Questions/Thoughts/Comments?

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:

I was thinking about a simlilar idea over the past few days after reading about how the true martial arcanist base class hasn't really been done to the satisfaction of many.

My working solution is in looking at the Gestalt idea in Unearthed Arcana which results in a character that's effectively one level higher than normal. So... A Gestalt Fighter/Wizard.

The trick is to tone it down to where it's balanced both with the core 3.5 fighter and the core 3.5 wizard.

I want to keep it at the full BAB progression of the fighter. Afterall, the Paladin keeps the full BAB while adding divine powers and spells. The problem is that I want to keep the spellcasting closer to the high end, as well.

So... What needs to be removed from the Gestalt Fighter/Wizard to bring it back into balance with the other core classes? And, is it possible to do this while keeping access to ninth level wizard spells?

Suggestions...

1. Drop familiar
2. Drop Heavy Armor Proficiency
3. Cut Spells per day in half but keep access to each spell level at the normal wizard levels.
4. drop the bonus feats from both classes... then combine the lists and award a bonus feat at first level and then every 3rd level.
5. hit dice = d10
6. skill points per level = 2
7. limit the list of weapon proficiencies to Unearthed Arcana's Simple Weapon Group Proficiency plus 3 other weapon groups.
8. Add ability to cast arcane spells in light and medium armor w/o arcane spell failure chance (with light shields).

Questions/Thoughts/Comments?

Click to expand...

Compare it with the cleric. Better BAB, more hit points, bonus feats and more direct damage spells contra casting in heavy armor, turning undead and more spells per day (some of which usually are needed for healing later). And keep in mind that the wizard half can get buff spells just as well, and has some frightful combat transformations on higher level, too. And that the cleric per se is viewed as one of the strongest (or most overpowered) base classes from the PHB.

I'll give this some thought and maybe post again on it, later today.

OK. It took quite a bit longer to get a chance to write this up, but here it is.


Thoughts/Questions/Comments?