D&D 3E/3.5 Yet another 3.5e Sorceror modification post.

IndyPendant · Feb 4, 2005

I still think that, while the Sorceror isn't anywhere near useless, it is a little weak in comparison to the other classes. A long time ago, I tried a bit of a complex modification to the Sorceror.

Everyone hated it. Including my own players. : )

So I shelved it, lurked on the boards, skimmed posts on the Sorceror, saw nothing I liked. Discussed with my players, and let things percolate. Now I'm ready for a second try.

My goal here is to make the Sorceror balanced in relation to the other classes, without requiring a calculator to determine the benefits, or pages of information to wade through. I think, *maybe*, this time I've gotten it...?

Let me know what you think, okay? And thanks.

Sorceror:
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Arcana (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Familiar:
The sorceror no longer gains a familiar as a class feature.

Eschew Materials:
Sorcerers gain their spells from innate, inborn power. Because of this, they have no need to worry about material components--they are, in essence, their own material components. A character with one sorceror level gains the feat Eschew Materials when casting sorceror spells. If a spell has more costly material components, the sorceror still does not need to obtain the material component; if he chooses, he may instead pay a price in experience points for casting the spell. The sorcerer then pays 1/25th of the gold-piece cost of the component in XP (minimum loss of 1 XP). Thus, if a sorcerer casts stoneskin, but does not possess the required 250 gp worth of diamond dust, the sorcerer instead pays 10 XP (250 divided by 25 is 10). Spells that already require an expenditure of experience points are handled normally, in addition to this ability. The sorceror chooses whether to use a material component or spend xp at the time each spell is cast, and any spells cast using this ability are not considered metamagically enhanced. If the sorceror has selected the Eschew Materials feat prior to gaining this ability, he may replace that selection with a different feat if he wishes.

Bonus Feats:
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th sorceror Levels, the sorceror gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a metamagic feat. When casting sorceror spells enhanced with one of these chosen feats, the sorceror does not need to take extra time to cast due to the spontaneous casting penalty. If the sorceror has already selected a metamagic feat that he would like to apply this ability to, he may do so; he would then choose a new metamagic feat that would suffer the spontaneous casting penalty as normal.

Crothian · Feb 4, 2005

well, you have clearly upped the power of the class. Modifications like these are not totally unheard of and will do the job you want based on the premise the Sorcerer is weak..

Cyberzombie · Feb 4, 2005

...which is, after all, a correct premise.

That is so elegantly simple it has me slapping my forehead. I was groaning when I looked at the bonus metamagic feats -- great, another sorcerer that looks just like the wizard. Then I read on and was amazed. Your slight little change on the ability makes metamagic (other than Heighten Spell) actually useful for a Sorcerer for the first time EVAR!

Your twist on Eschew is also brilliant. Kudos to you, sir. Kudos. I'd quibble minor points on the skill list, but nothing really important. I think you have found the best simple solution so far!

Thanee · Feb 5, 2005

Looks fairly similar to the variant I had posted. I also lowered the spell level entry to the same levels where a wizard gets the new spell levels and added 2 spells known.

Altho, I personally think, that that is too much.

In my game I only give them 4+Int skill points per level, a few new class skills and Eschew Materials for free.

What I do not like is the added part with the bonus feats. I'd rather change Quicken Spell than that stuff.

Bye
Thanee

Viktyr Gehrig · Feb 5, 2005

I remove the familiar and give Draconic Heritage and Eschew Materials for free at 1st, and a bonus Draconic feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. I'm tempted to reduce their spells known at each level by one and make up a nine-spell list for each variety of dragon. (Spontaneous casting is always a result of an exotic heritage or deep connection to some otherworldly being-- which, if not a dragon, results in a Favored Soul or a Shugenja.)

If Sorcerors want skills, they either don't use their Int as a dump stat or they Gestalt with a class that has good skill points. (I use Gestalt in games I run.)

Metamagic imposes extra casting time, as usual, except Quicken Spell. Four spell levels is more than enough to compensate for the flexibility of spontaneous metamagic.

edit: I don't think Sorcerors are weak. I think they're bland, which is worse. In my opinion, this gives them much more flavor, without unduly boosting their power level. The "dragon domain" would actually weaken them, but define them better-- which is a good tradeoff for the five bonus Draconic feats.

DreamChaser · Feb 5, 2005

Korimyr the Rat said:
I don't think Sorcerors are weak. I think they're bland, which is worse.

I completely agree. Whenever one of my players makes a sorcerer, I work closely with her to help her create a theme. I'm happy to allow them to change the flavor of spells, pick an extra class skill, or even change the school of particular spells (for thematic consistency) if it makes the character seem less like a watered down wizard.

DC

Sollir Furryfoot · Feb 5, 2005

Interesting, I actually did nearly the same thing as you did for my campaign, except I gave them d6 hps as well. For this to work, I suggest changing the Wizard as well so that they're limited to Item Creation feats at 5th level and every 5 after, compensating them by giving them the same amount of virtual XP to craft items as Artificers (from Eberron) get each level. This would help to further the distinction between the two classes, making the Sorcerer the master of metamagic and Wizards the masters of item creation.

dwayne · Feb 5, 2005

another one

I posted one as well with something simular :uhoh:

this seems to be an on going theme with the sorserer. In my opinion its up to the dm I have my PCs chose a bloodline feat at first level for free. This spices the class up a bit i also give them D6 hit points per level but that might be too much. The one that you have here is simple and easy to do and looks balanced I would add a bloodline feat as a bonus feat at first level only to spice it up a bit and the spontaneous casting of metamagic feats with out any limit is very powerful in my game I would limit it by alowing a number of times per day equil to there constaution modifer if he dose this more than the times he can a fortatude save Verse the DC of the spell, +2 to the DC for each attempt, or become Fatigued. If he still castes more spells after that then he has to make a fortatude save Verse the DC of the spell, +4 to the DC for each attempt, or become Exhausted. If he tries to cast any more spells after that then he takes subdule damage per level of spell of 1d6 per level.

Stalker0 · Feb 7, 2005

IMO, psionics made the sorcerer completely obsolete. Psionics have much more flavor, and are just "cooler" in general.

Li Shenron · Feb 7, 2005

There's an open poll in the General forum about which are the most played classes. Sorcerers aren't one of the most popular, but they are close runners up, and more popular than fairly strong classes such as Druid. It would be interesting to know how many of those who voted Sorcerer on that poll us the CORE class or a buffed-up variant instead

I voted Sorcerer, that's the class I have played most so far, but never I was given any HR bonus from the DMs. I still was a very effective character nonetheless.

It's always nice anyway to read these variants, because many people seem to think that the Sorcerer needs a sort of boost. More HP, skill points and bonus feats AFAIK are the typical suggestion, and some more daring DMs plan more unique special abilities.

Your variant is quite nice anyway... things I like:
- 4 skill points: people always want more s.p., they won't sensibly empower the Sorcerer but why not?
- bonus feats: very useful, metamagic is the Sorc's daily bread, and these would make the Sorcerer "more Sorcerer than ever"
- no casting time increase (with bonus feats only): this IMO doesn't change much, in most (not all) circumstances the casting time increase is not a big deal

But there's one thing I don't like:
- replacing gp cost with xp at a 1/25 rate: the rate is VERY low!!! When you think of Stoneskin, 250gp isn't a large price but still if you cast it 10 times it's 2500gp which starts to hurt a little. If you cast Stoneskin every morning, 100 times cost 25000gp which is the cost of a fairly good magic item you're giving up (in fact I've never seen wiz/sor casting Stoneskin every morning). But 1000xp aren't IMHO as much as 25000gp. I'd think about adjusting the rate to 1/10 at least, or 1/5 even.

D&D 3E/3.5 Yet another 3.5e Sorceror modification post.

IndyPendant

First Post

Crothian

First Post

Cyberzombie

Explorer

Thanee

First Post

Viktyr Gehrig

First Post

DreamChaser

Explorer

Sollir Furryfoot

Explorer

dwayne

Adventurer

Stalker0

Legend

Li Shenron

Legend

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