Sepulchrave II
Legend
Anybody got one of these?
Is 10 + Cleric level/2 + Cha a reasonable place to start?
Is 10 + Cleric level/2 + Cha a reasonable place to start?
Will Save Undead Turning Mechanic?
- Thread starter Sepulchrave II
- Start date
Sejs
First Post
*nod* 10 + (1/2 cleric level) + Cha mod would be the standard, pretty much. Would things such as Empower Turning, or Greater Turning affect the save DC or just what they do, would you say? What about feats to increase the turning save difficulty, such as Ability Focus (Turn Undead)?
Generally in my games I remove the undead spooking/blasting aspect of Turn Undead and just keep it around for the misc. applications mentioned in the PHB and for fueling divine feats. I've been of the opinion that Turn Undead tends to marginalize undead opponents a bit much for my tastes, unless they come packaged with buckets of turn resistance. A will save might well be something to considder as an alternative, however. Cheers.
Generally in my games I remove the undead spooking/blasting aspect of Turn Undead and just keep it around for the misc. applications mentioned in the PHB and for fueling divine feats. I've been of the opinion that Turn Undead tends to marginalize undead opponents a bit much for my tastes, unless they come packaged with buckets of turn resistance. A will save might well be something to considder as an alternative, however. Cheers.
Sammael
Adventurer
The problem with Will save is that undead have a good Will save, so this makes them even more resistant to turning than before. Take a ghoul, for example: Will +5. A 1st level cleric with Cha 12 would have a DC of 11 for his turn undead ability, so the ghoul has a 75% chance to resist. If you add its turn resistance +2 as a bonus on the save, it becomes even worse.
Under the core rules, a ghoul is turned as a 3HD creature, so a 1st level cleric with Cha 12 has to roll a 12 or higher to turn it, i.e. the ghoul has a 55% chance to resist.
My house rule is that it's a Fort save (same DC as with your proposed system), and the undead get their turn resistance and Cha bonus (if any) as bonuses on the roll. So, a ghoul would have +3 on the save (+0 Fort, +2 turn resistance, +1 Cha), giving it a 60% chance to resist, slightly worse than in the core rules. However, without the HD dependance, the cleric can now turn skeletons and zombies much easier, which is fine in my book.
Under the core rules, a ghoul is turned as a 3HD creature, so a 1st level cleric with Cha 12 has to roll a 12 or higher to turn it, i.e. the ghoul has a 55% chance to resist.
My house rule is that it's a Fort save (same DC as with your proposed system), and the undead get their turn resistance and Cha bonus (if any) as bonuses on the roll. So, a ghoul would have +3 on the save (+0 Fort, +2 turn resistance, +1 Cha), giving it a 60% chance to resist, slightly worse than in the core rules. However, without the HD dependance, the cleric can now turn skeletons and zombies much easier, which is fine in my book.
Sepulchrave II
Legend
That's a good argument for a Fort Save.
What if you made it a 30-ft. cone affecting all creatures? Too strong? What if you let the cleric choose between a cone, and an individual target - say with a +2 bonus on his check if he opts for the latter.
What if you made it a 30-ft. cone affecting all creatures? Too strong? What if you let the cleric choose between a cone, and an individual target - say with a +2 bonus on his check if he opts for the latter.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Consider that yoinked, Sammael.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
What would you do to replicate the blasting effect of turning? Still just use the HD+Turn resistance that currently exists? Or something else?
Someone
Adventurer
This system also makes paladins better turners than clerics. A paladin´s virtual cleric level is his paladin level-3; in the formula that means that the level dependant factor will be 1.5-2 points behind of a cleric of the paladin´s same level, but in my experience paladins have charisma bonuses at least 2 points higher than of a cleric.
jerichothebard
First Post
I actually crunched some numbers on that variant once - results are posted in this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=103679
hope that helps!
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=103679
hope that helps!
Sepulchrave II
Legend
jerichothebard said:
Many thanks! Lots to think about here.
jerichothebard
First Post
Here are the rules I use now, which I find work really well:
Turning Undead
Duration: concentration, up to 1 rond/(effective cleric) level - see below
Radius: 30', with the availability of a feat to increase it (sort of like metamagic - maybe costing two turning attempts)
Effects:
Will save DC (10+effective cleric level+CHA bonus+whatever other bonuses) Negates.
Turn resistance applies to this Will save as resistance bonus.
Undead who fail must flee the radius of effect. They may not attempt to re-enter the area as long as the effect remains.
Additionally, undead who critically fail (by more than five) take 1d6 holy damage/2 effective cleric level, up to 5d6 at 10th level.
Undead attempting to enter the area of effect must succeed at the same Will save or be prevented from entering. Undead forced into the area (picked up and thrown by a hearty fighter type, for example) suffer the same effects as the undead initially in the area.
Undead prevented from leaving the area begin to take damage on the second round of "exposure".
Maintining a turn is like concentrating to maintain a spell - a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a turn. If your concentration breaks, the turning effect ends.
Greater turning:
As turning, except as follows:
Duration: Instantaneous
Radius: 30’ radius burst
Effect: undead in the radius must succeed at a will save, or be destroyed. Undead who make their save take 1d6 holy damage/effective cleric level, up to 10d6 at 10th level.
Bolstering Undead:
Gives undead a turn resistance of +1/effective cleric level, and 1d6 temporary hitpoints/2 cleric levels. 30' radius, with feat available to increase radius. (I have not playtested bolstering yet)
I haven't yet figured out how all the turning feats work.
jtb
Turning Undead
Duration: concentration, up to 1 rond/(effective cleric) level - see below
Radius: 30', with the availability of a feat to increase it (sort of like metamagic - maybe costing two turning attempts)
Effects:
Will save DC (10+effective cleric level+CHA bonus+whatever other bonuses) Negates.
Turn resistance applies to this Will save as resistance bonus.
Undead who fail must flee the radius of effect. They may not attempt to re-enter the area as long as the effect remains.
Additionally, undead who critically fail (by more than five) take 1d6 holy damage/2 effective cleric level, up to 5d6 at 10th level.
Undead attempting to enter the area of effect must succeed at the same Will save or be prevented from entering. Undead forced into the area (picked up and thrown by a hearty fighter type, for example) suffer the same effects as the undead initially in the area.
Undead prevented from leaving the area begin to take damage on the second round of "exposure".
Maintining a turn is like concentrating to maintain a spell - a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a turn. If your concentration breaks, the turning effect ends.
Greater turning:
As turning, except as follows:
Duration: Instantaneous
Radius: 30’ radius burst
Effect: undead in the radius must succeed at a will save, or be destroyed. Undead who make their save take 1d6 holy damage/effective cleric level, up to 10d6 at 10th level.
Bolstering Undead:
Gives undead a turn resistance of +1/effective cleric level, and 1d6 temporary hitpoints/2 cleric levels. 30' radius, with feat available to increase radius. (I have not playtested bolstering yet)
I haven't yet figured out how all the turning feats work.
jtb
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