Tailoring magic to fit this type of world

Ok, I've got to say it.

The base D&D spell system, Vancian magic, spell slots - whatever you want to call it....

....it sucks.

I know it's functional. I know it works. But it completely robs me and my games of any sense of wonder, risk, or satisfaction.

I know there is a large number of alternative magic systems on the market. Based on the posts I've read, some feel that they are completely incompatible. Others might just require tweaking. My d20/OGL library isn't extensive enough for me to know for sure. So for those who have looked at various alternatives, here's what I'm trying to accomplish:

Cultural or racial differences to magic. For example:

Humans, with their shorter lifespans seek the most power they can grab in the shortest period of time. My front-runner for this style of magic would be Conan's OGL Sorcery system. Humanity's frequent willingness to enter into pacts with demonic forces puts them at odds with some of the other races, such as the elves.

Elves - magic heavily influenced by or wholly based on nature-magic or the manipulation of elemental forces. Not necessarily limited to druid-style magic, but I just don't see the majority of elves tossing fireballs around the forest. The magic should be either harder to learn than sorcery or more subtle.

Dwarves - rune-magic. Slow to create, yet powerful in execution. As with the elves, at odds with the humans' desire for quick gain and/or high power.

Humanoids - perhaps sorcery ala humans, but probably with the demonic influence/corruption factor turned up to 11.

Conceivably, any race could learn any style of magic, but these are the arcane styles that the races tend to gravitate towards.

So any ideas? I'd be willing to work at tweaking and combining d20 variants, but I'd like to have a sense of where the strengths of the variants lie in achieving my goal. (Thanks to Turanil for his "variant magic" post.)

I'd even go along the lines of class-based magic. Humans are Scholars using Sorcery ala Conan, Elves are <insert class from d20 variant> using <magic system from d20 variant game>, etc. For example, I can extrapolate Conan-style Parry and Defense values to overcome compatibility issues.

Or am I better off house-ruling/redefining the base magic system? I.e. altering casting times, restricting spell availability, using spell points from UA, etc.

Has anyone else tried something similar?

You could always try using Grim Tales and limiting the spell availability, like I did...but, that's just a suggestion.

Well, if enough Enworlders are willing to contribute too my thread, it will give you a number of ideas of what you could do for a homebrew magic system.

This is at least what I hope for my own needs. As always, I am dissatisfied with everything that exists, and want to come up with something new for a low-magic setting. I want something:
1) relatively simple and easy to use;
2) using "normal" spells from D&D and similar sources;
3) have a flexible system where the caster can decide many variables, like casting a spell more powerfully or weaker;
4) there is always some risks for unexpected results or backfire, so there is almost always a little fear of the outcome when casting a spell;
5) what level of spell can be cast is not tied to level of caster; and spellcasting is not necessarily tied to a spellcasting class.
6) circumstances and environment can greatly affect spellcasting (low magic zone, chaos magic zones, etc.)
7) low magic in that a character fully dedicated to spellcasting can nonetheless not cast more than a dozen spell-levels per day, and is willing to cast only when really needed as there is always unpleasant risks involved.

I think I will have to read many variants and systems before finding brilliant ideas to bring this to completion and not create a wonky system...

In my game (which is generally very low magic) I use a system derived from Ars magica and then give it flavor for each different style - Hermetic magic is the base magic system using forms, techniques and power to derive a casting DC. Sorcery is based on the premise of using greater or lesser outsiders to do the summoners bidding (obviously risky, but only in a different way than hermetic magic). What I call Khabbalistic magic is much more subtle but farther reaching than the other two styles... and Oracular magic deals with seeing and shaping events both in the present and the future.... The final element for all these styles is that the casting DC is modified by a random factor and failure to make the dc doesn't always result in failure of the spell but can also include backlash upon the caster in a variety of ways.

just to share a few ideas.

Ars Magica 4 is a free download from RPGnow.

Azgulor said:

So any ideas? I'd be willing to work at tweaking and combining d20 variants, but I'd like to have a sense of where the strengths of the variants lie in achieving my goal. (Thanks to Turanil for his "variant magic" post.)

Click to expand...

Well, as already said above, I am searching for a new sytem myself, to be used with d20 Modern (Grim Tales) classes. After a little playtesting, Grim Tales as is, just enable you to cast one or two spells per week, and require some bookeeping. I want something different. Here are my ideas that I would like to discuss:

1) Magic Items.

This will be an easy houserule for me. There will be two categories of magical items: +1 or +2 armors and weapons, and lesser potions are relatively easy to come by. True magical items are much more rare than in traditional D&D.

-- Enchanted Weapons (and Armors): This is your typical +1 sword. As far as flavor is concerned, it is not seen a "magic weapon" but an "enchanted blade". You can do it yourself (item creation feats) or go to the nearest alchemist/artificer and order one. It costs around 100 to 200 gp + 80 XP (paid by customer, not alchemist), and takes a few days to manufacture. The only thing is, the enchantment is not permanent but wears off after 1 year per level of the alchemist who laid the enchantment on the balde. Getting simple potions is also relatively easy and not too expensive, but a potion of healing might give hit-point over the course of a full night of sleep rather than instantaneously while drinking it.

-- Magical Items: They are wonderful, weird, and mysterious. They have various side effects that can act as plot device. For example, there is no such thing as a mere "+3 sword". Instead, there is, for example, The Sword of Sleckr. Okay, basically it is +3. But then it is black and engraved with malevolent runes. Wielding or just wearing the sword unsheated, due to its malevolent aura the owner gets a +4 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks, and likewise -4 penalty to Diplomacy checks. Sleckr was a drow murderer, and some people may remember the sword, with possible reole-playing / plot devices effects. Then, those killed by the sword have their souls doomed, and anytime one passes near a graveyard or something, there is a chance that a ghost or something will come attack the owner. Lastly, when you hit in the threat range, no-need to confirm as it automatically critical hit. However, wielder must roll a Will save or be possessed by a killing frenzy for 1d12 rounds, attacking friends and foes alike. So you see, magical items are clearly something special, not just a convenient bonus.


2) Spellcasting System.

First it is not "low-magic", but "less magic at higher levels". I want magic not tied to a specific character class (like wizard, etc.). Also, level of spell one can cast will not be tied to character's level, and system is very flexible. I want that anyone could cast a couple of spells, but those who get appropriate talents (restricted to Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic heroes) can do it better. So far here is my idea:

-- Anyone with ranks in Spellcraft can learn a spell, and record it in his spellbook (or similar item). As normal: DC 15 + level of the spell to learn a spell. Spells must be found, while researching a spell takes months and requires a new feat (spell creation).

-- Casting a spell uses spell-points (if any; 1 point per spell level), or burns hit-points (1d6 per spell level of lethal damage). Then you make a caster level check at DC 10 + spell level. On a natural 1 not only spell fails, but also create a wild-surge / magical accident. It is possible to take 10 or 20 with this check, but of course casting time is dramatically increased. Caster level check is d20 + caster level. Caster level is not PC level; it's equal to 0 unless one has a Magical Adept talent. Spell is cast at the level of the spell + caster level. [Example: A Fast hero knows Fireball and wants to cast it. First he loses 3d6 pts of damage; then he must roll a d20+0 = 13 or more; and thus will be able to create a fireball of 3d6 of damage. Not really impressive, but he is not a Smart Hero with appropriate talents...]

-- Magical Adept Talent: You can take it only once, per type of magic: Arcane (Int.; wizard list), Divine (Wis.; cleric or druid list), or Wild (Cha.; bard list). It gives you a caster level and number of spell-points equal to your Ability Score modifier. [Example: A Smart hero with 18 Int knows Fireball and wants to cast it. First he loses 3 spell-points; then he must roll a d20+4 = 13 or more; and thus will be able to create a fireball of 7d6 of damage. Impressive for a 3rd level character, but once he has cast this spell, he has just 1 spell-point remaining. Let's say he wants to cast it again: he will spend his last spell-point + suffer 2d6 of damage. If DM thinks that a 7d6 fireball spell is overpowering for a 3rd level character, he just needs not giving this spell until the PC is 7th level.]

-- Improved Magical Adept Talent: Once the character has got Magical Adept Talent, he can improve it with this subsequent talent that gives him 1 additional spell-point and increase his caster level by +1.

-- Recovering Spell-points: Probably 1 per hour of sleep. Let's say that maximum is thus 8 per night, and 1 or 2 per siesta after lunch. Then, some rare mystical things or places could restore spell-points more quickly, but it's like finding a "magical fountain" or what-not... and utterly dependant on the DM's whim.


What do you think of this? Feedback appreciated.

3) Additional tweaking to my above idea:

Grim Tales system uses spell-burn damage of 1d6. You can have "spell-burn resistance", but the rule is that a natural roll of 1 on such d6 cannot be reduced by "spell-burn resistance". As such, I did buy a nice set of d6 dice with skulls replacing the number 1. I still would like to use them in my houseruled spellcasting system. So I was considering this:

-- When a characters casts a spells but has no spell-points to fuel them, he suffers 1d6 of damage per spell level. However, there is also an additional twist: if he rols a 1 on the die, he doesn't suffer any damage at all, but instead 1d6 pts damage are suffered by the closest creature, friend or foe alike. (If there is no creature in the vicinity, re-roll the d6, and it is suffered by the caster.) This weird effect of magic has thus been taken advantage of by vile magic-users of the basest sort. They devised an evil feat, that permits to augment the chances of another creature instead of themselves, to suffer the damage. As such, their black magic often uses others as sacrificial victims.



-- Metamagic Feats: As a feat augments the spell level, the cost in spell-points or dice of burning damage increases likewise. All other aspects: spellcasting time, etc. remain the same.

-- Cantrips (zero level spells): Burn only 1d4 points of damage, no risk of burning someone else. Then, a character gets a number of "free" cantrips per day equal to his number of spell-points; but thereafter they cost 1 spell-point. (Okay, I don't really like this idea, because it mumbles things somehow...)

Turanil said:

Well, as already said above, I am searching for a new sytem myself, to be used with d20 Modern (Grim Tales) classes. After a little playtesting, Grim Tales as is, just enable you to cast one or two spells per week, and require some bookeeping. I want something different. Here are my ideas that I would like to discuss:

Click to expand...

Really, it seems like dedicated spellcasters will have enough burn resistance to cast spells alot more frequently than 1/week.

Victim said:

Really, it seems like dedicated spellcasters will have enough burn resistance to cast spells alot more frequently than 1/week.

Click to expand...

There is an error in the Grim Tales book. That is: Improved Magical Adept talent gives a +1 spell-burn resistance as well as +1 caster level. With this, you quickly have a spellcaster with a great spellcasting potential. I pointed it to Wulf, long ago, and he informally corrected it here on the boards: so "normally" the Improved Magical Adept talent only gives a +1 caster level, NOT a +1 spell-burn resistance. Then, Wulf suggested somewhere else on these boards a way of giving ability scores to PCs in which a character maximum is 15. Even if it is discarded, I don't like a system which encourages to quickly get a 22 in Int to have a spell-burn resistance of 6, in which case this is no more a "low-magic" system. Here is why I am trying to come up with something different.

I'm currently pretty fond of the Black Company magic system for low magic. It presupposes 50+ level casters, so you'll find casters stay relatively weak throughout the non-epic levels while still having quite a bit they're capable of.

Just using the system, without some of the optional add-ons (like True Names, Edges, etc) I think it can be tacked on to Grim Tales rather easily.

BCCS casters need 3 stats: Charisma (Magic Use is a Cha skill), Spell Energy is based on Con, and the held/lynchpined spells (think "Memorized") are based on Int. With a 28 point buy, our wizard still felt tight. (So you don't get one stat pumped).

You'll find that casters need to be 2nd Magnitude before they can start regularly whipping out spells that hurt others. That's high teens. My caster recently reached 1st Mag at 5th level and can create, as a free action, a +2 Sheild AC Force effect that lasts 3 rounds. That's the only useful thing he can do as a Swift action. Because Ranges are so short, he actually can't cast any effective offensive spells in one round, because he has to augment up some distance on it.

Of course, the held spells per day (equal to Int bonus) can be pretty much anything he can cast. These regularly get into DCs that take almost a minute or more to cast but can whomp down, say, 6d4 Nonlethal damage in a 20' burst at 50'. (With the Force talent).

I think that sort of system has alot of untested play in it ... racial talent groups, tweaking the Aptitude rules so some races cast FASTER and the talent base DCs so some races cast STRONGER.

I'm also quite a big fan of the Alternity "Beyond Science" magic rules. I did some work converting some of those to d20. The basic premise is that each "Kind" of magic is a seperate talent feat and that there are certain spell effects. Each of those is a skill, and different effects reflect different DCs, or are based on ranks. So, say, you'd have a Summoning spell and the DC you set yourself would determine the CR of the creature you conjured up, etc. This sort of system gives you very strictly defined magical traditions, which you may like.

--fje