Dialogue de sourds about mathematics: Are exponents substractions in disguise?

Gez · Apr 8, 2005

Here's a quick question.

Would an empowered magic missile deal on average 5.25 damage (3.5 x 1.5), or 4.75 (2.5 x 1.5 + 1) ?

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

This question arose from a controversy over at the Wizards.com boards.

pbd · Apr 8, 2005

A magic missle does 2-5 damage, that is the variable numeric effect. So the empowered missle does 2 - 5 (1d4+1) x 1.5.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Apr 8, 2005

A Cure Light Wounds spell at CL 1 heals 2-9 points of damage (expressed as 1d8 + 1/CL, Max +5). Empowered, it heals 3-13 points of damage.

A CLW spell at CL 5 heals 6-13 points of damage. Empowered, it heals 9-19.

Heck, magic missile is the example used in the PHB - I don't see how there can be any controversy about it.

JimAde · Apr 8, 2005

My vote (and I have no rules backing for this) is (1d4 * 1.5) + 1 for an average of 4.75.

It seems to me that only the variable parts should be multiplied. This is especially true for spells like Cure Light Wounds, where the static part can be bigger than the variable part.

Edit: Apparently I'm just a mean GM.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Apr 8, 2005

JimAde said:
Edit: Apparently I'm just a mean GM.

Yes. Yes, you are. Bad GM! Baaaaad! No pizza for you!

My vote (and I have no rules backing for this) is (1d4 * 1.5) + 1 for an average of 4.75.

It seems to me that only the variable parts should be multiplied.

The question you need to ask yourself before you apply the feat is, "What are the variable numeric effects of this spell?"

With the magic missile spell, the number of missiles is not variable. When you cast it, you get a set number of missiles.

What *is* variable is the amount of damage each missile does. Therefore, the damage each missile does is a "variable numeric effect" of the spell.

How much damage does each missile do? 1d4+1 or, more simply, 2-5.

Therefore, when multiplying the "variable numeric effects" of the spell, you multiply 2-5.

Rystil Arden · Apr 8, 2005

I don't see how there is any room for Patryn to be wrong here. As previously stated, magic missile is the example used in the text.

JimAde · Apr 8, 2005

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Yes. Yes, you are. Bad GM! Baaaaad! No pizza for you!

The question you need to ask yourself before you apply the feat is, "What are the variable numeric effects of this spell?"

With the magic missile spell, the number of missiles is not variable. When you cast it, you get a set number of missiles.

What *is* variable is the amount of damage each missile does. Therefore, the damage each missile does is a "variable numeric effect" of the spell.

How much damage does each missile do? 1d4+1 or, more simply, 2-5.

Therefore, when multiplying the "variable numeric effects" of the spell, you multiply 2-5.

I'll buy that. But it means that Empower becomes a MUCH better deal than Maximize in some cases. You can actually get more effect while using a lower level slot.

Cure Light Wounds at 5th level heals 6-13 damage, average 9.5

Empowered gets you 9.5 * 1.5 = 14.25 points healed for a 3rd-level slot
Maximized gets you 13 points healed for a 4th-level slot

Granted this is an "edge case" and the vast majority of the time it's fine. But any case where there's a large "fixed" component will tend to do this.

Rystil Arden · Apr 8, 2005

JimAde said:
I'll buy that. But it means that Empower becomes a MUCH better deal than Maximize in some cases. You can actually get more effect while using a lower level slot.

Cure Light Wounds at 5th level heals 6-13 damage, average 9.5

Empowered gets you 9.5 * 1.5 = 14.25 points healed for a 3rd-level slot
Maximized gets you 13 points healed for a 4th-level slot

Granted this is an "edge case" and the vast majority of the time it's fine. But any case where there's a large "fixed" component will tend to do this.

Empower is often better than maximise because of maximise's increased cost, and that's why I see a lot more characters with Empower than Maximise. Just about the only things that are good to maximise are spells that use big dice, like the psionic powers Mind Thrust and Body Adjustment. Maximising d4 spells like Magic Missile is pretty much never a good idea.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Apr 8, 2005

JimAde said:
I'll buy that. But it means that Empower becomes a MUCH better deal than Maximize in some cases. You can actually get more effect while using a lower level slot.

Yep. Ain't it great?

Thanee · Apr 8, 2005

Yep, especially with spells that have some random and a pretty large amount of fixed effect (i.e. Ray of Enfeeblement, False Life, Fire Shield) Empower Spell is totally superior.

On the flip side, Sudden Maximize is usually simply better than Sudden Empower.

Bye
Thanee

Dialogue de sourds about mathematics: Are exponents substractions in disguise?

Gez

First Post

pbd

First Post

Patryn of Elvenshae

First Post

JimAde

First Post

Patryn of Elvenshae

First Post

Rystil Arden

First Post

JimAde

First Post

Rystil Arden

First Post

Patryn of Elvenshae

First Post

Thanee

First Post

Similar Threads