[Grim Tales/D20 Modern] Non Human races? How to balance it...

Just curious what sort of guidelines a GM should consider when looking to add other-than-human races for player availability in a system that is built around the notion that humans are the only race. I haven't seen Urban Arcana, so I don't know how or even if they deal with this. An issue that seemed to be troublesome with regards to a clean borrowing from D&D is that the idea of Favored Classes is pretty well obsolete in Grim Tales/D20 Modern type systems.

Any other considerations I should think about to make this work cleanly? Something like give humans extra Action Points per level to compensate for effectively losing Favored Class: Any?

Any help regardless?


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Eric Anondson said:

Just curious what sort of guidelines a GM should consider when looking to add other-than-human races for player availability in a system that is built around the notion that humans are the only race.

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Use the Creature Creation chapter.

I figure anything less than (not equal to, less than) +0.5 CR is balanced.

You can remove 1 skill point per level (-0.1 CR) and 1 feat at 1st level (-0.2 CR) and you have just under 0.8 CR to play with.

If you feel like you have to compensate a bit for humans, give them more leeway in the backgrounds and/or core skills, or an extra core skill (for that extra skill point, natch).

But definitely look at the tail end of Chapter 13 where the CR breakdowns for the standard D&D races are given.


Wulf

Hey Wulf, a related question: if +1 Feat at 1st is +.2 CR, and +1 Skill Point/Level is +.1, what would +1 Core Skill be?

I'm guessing +.2 CR...

Kirin'Tor said:

Hey Wulf, a related question: if +1 Feat at 1st is +.2 CR, and +1 Skill Point/Level is +.1, what would +1 Core Skill be?

I'm guessing +.2 CR...

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That's reasonable. You can get a lot of mileage out of +0.2 CR, because that's the cost of a feat. It's a great benchmark.

Wulf

I'm finding Wulf's excel tool for creature calculating to be invaluable for race balancing.

I'm creating alot of NonPlayable non-human races for my custom game, people with quite a bit of power, and I wanted to know how to run their CR. (Sort of like Drow weren't really meant to be played).

For my games, I use the BCCS magic system. Most of the races have a special "-5 DC" for talents particularly suited to them. I gave my mysterious, evil humanoid race a natural lowered DC for Afflict and Destroy, for instance. I calculated those out as about a feat, or 0.2CR apiece. As Wulf said, it's a good benchmark.

I'm also using the spreadsheet for my upcoming Star Wars RPG game. It seems like the designers were looking much more to FLAVOR than to BALANCE when they created the 120+ PC races available across the products ... so when somebody asks to use one I plug it into "Wulf's Magical CR Machine" and adjust up or down for balance.

--fje

So just to test out an example, however unconventional this is, I know the Hit Dice to Large is not normal... just work with me here .

+1.4 CR for Large
+0.2 CR for Giant type (for Darkvision)
+1.1 CR for Hit Dice (+2d8 above the character level hit dice)
–1.2 CR for Ability Scores (–4 to Int, –4 to Wis, –4 to Cha, –12 total)
–0.2 CR for –1 Feat
–0.1 CR for –1 Skill Point per level

Total = +1.2 CR, Rounded to +1.25 CR.

So what would the Level Adjustment be here for XP determination? At first glance, give this character a level in something, say Fighter, and we have a 2.25 CR character. The ".25" seems to be troublesome for PC use who will be getting more levels, while a 1.25 CR monster is not much concern.

So would a good guideline for designing player character races be to stick to integers? Just as a "best practice" goal?

Of course, let me know if I'm just getting something wrong.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Grim Tales doesn't use ECL or level adjustments. Rather, the extra CR reduces the xp gained by the party because challenges become easier.

So if this fellow is a half-ogre fighter 1 adventuring with 3 other first-level humans, the CR of the party is
5.25 instead of the usual 4, and they can handle tougher encounters. Everybody will earn xp as a first level character, but the difference between the party's encounter level and a challenge's encounter level will be greater.

But since you're adding on extra hit dice, it seems more reasonabe to just stat out some monster levels and throw in the associated skill points as well.

Ben

Eric Anondson said:

So just to test out an example, however unconventional this is, I know the Hit Dice to Large is not normal... just work with me here .

+1.4 CR for Large
+0.2 CR for Giant type (for Darkvision)
+1.1 CR for Hit Dice (+2d8 above the character level hit dice)
–1.2 CR for Ability Scores (–4 to Int, –4 to Wis, –4 to Cha, –12 total)
–0.2 CR for –1 Feat
–0.1 CR for –1 Skill Point per level

Total = +1.2 CR, Rounded to +1.25 CR.

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Depending on whether you are using the spreadsheet or the book, you might have to double check a couple of things that Size adjustments will change. Notably that 1.4CR for Large includes +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 natural armor, -1 AC for size, -1 BAB for size. If you want to "back out" any of those automatic adjustments, make sure to account for them.

Also please note that the cost for those 2 Hit Dice includes BAB, skill points, and 1 feat.

Everything else looks like you did it right.

So what would the Level Adjustment be here for XP determination?

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If you want to use LA, which I don't recommend, use +1.

The problem with LA is that, while +1 is fair for this guy at 1st level, it's not fair at 10th level, for example.

Fuindor got it right-- I recommend you use the full and exact CR of each character for determining XP by EL. This character's CR is 2.25. Factor that in along with the 1 CR for each of his "normal" first level buddies, and the total party CR is 5.25. This means that this party will receive fewer XP for a CR1 monster-- it's easier.

A normal party of four 1st level characters vs. a CR1 critter earn 75 XP each.

The party with the half ogre earns 37 XP each. (Total party power = 8.06-- more than twice as powerful.)

When you go to award XP, the giant character earns XP based on his character level-- 1st level. So he doesn't get 2.25x the amount of XP, he gets 1x the XP share, just like all the other 1st level characters.

(If you need me to explain this in greater detail-- the whole "Chi/Rho" thing-- just ask.)

But doesn't the whole "CR Adjustment" just reward the guy playing the Half Ogre while hurting the rest of the party? Everyone earns the same experience points, but only one guy really gets to kick butt with his half-ogre.

Hammerhead said:

But doesn't the whole "CR Adjustment" just reward the guy playing the Half Ogre while hurting the rest of the party? Everyone earns the same experience points, but only one guy really gets to kick butt with his half-ogre.

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Obviously, the GM should make sure that the party is balanced, but this case is no different than allowing one guy to start at 2nd level and everybody else at 1st.

Why a GM would do that, I don't know.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with awarding XP.

If Grond is 2.25 CR-- 1st level and some giant HD-- and I am starting as a 2nd level character, then two things happen:

a) the party is balanced-- no hard feelings

b) Grond earns 1x XP (cause he is character level 1) and I earn 2x XP (cause I am character level 2).

Trust me, it works out.