Darkvision, Shadows and HiPS

Since shadows are relative to your vision capabilities, wouldn't darkvision (DV) negate HiPS?
(i.e. someone with darkvision isn't affected by shadows, within DV range, that is)

For the thousandth time: NO!
Shadows exist due to the nature of light, not because of our ability to percieve them.

From the SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

No where in there is any indication that the person viewing the shadowdancer must be able to percieve the shadows. Heck, it doesn't even say the shadowdancer has to be able to.
This sounds like less of an odd thing to say if you consider that shadowdancers get darkvision.

Out of curiousity, why do you think that DV negates HiPS?

TheEvil said:

For the thousandth time: NO!
Shadows exist due to the nature of light, not because of our ability to percieve them.

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But depending on your kind of vision, these shadows can exist or not.
Someone with low-light vision, doesn't see less in shadowy illumination.

From the SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Click to expand...

Yes, the rule is clear.
But the problem is that shadows, from the point of view of the rules, depend on the observer (this is the critical point, i which I may be wrong).
Someone with Darkvision wouldn't be affected/see shadows.
Even something in shadows for an elf, would be shadowy illumination or even darkness for a human.

No where in there is any indication that the person viewing the shadowdancer must be able to percieve the shadows. Heck, it doesn't even say the shadowdancer has to be able to.

Click to expand...

Yes you are right.
I'm mostly trying to see if there's any inconsistency in the rules.
Which I suspect there is... but I'm not sure.

This sounds like less of an odd thing to say if you consider that shadowdancers get darkvision.

Click to expand...

I think that, balance-wise, HiPS shouldn't be countered by darkvision.

BTW, a Light spell would negate the ability to HiPS within it's area, wouldn't it?

Out of curiousity, why do you think that DV negates HiPS?

Click to expand...

For all the reasons mentioned above.
But I repeat, I'm mainly trying to catch an inconsistency. If there is any.

For the three-hundred, seventy-fourth time: YES!

Hide in Plain Sight is nothing more than a modification of when someone can use the Hide skill.

Succinctly, the Hide skill requires that someone:

1) Not be under direct observation;
2) Have cover or concealment

Thusly, someone hiding 20' down a dark alley, but otherwise in plain view, can hide because he has concealment (20% due to darkness). However, he is automatically revealed to any elf or dwarf who should walk by. The elf can see him because he can see twice as far as a human (who has bright illumination up to 10' down the alley), and the dwarf can see him because the dwarf can see through 60' of darkness.

So, in what fashion does HiPS change the Hide skill?

SRD said:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Click to expand...

It quite obviously removes condition #1.

It does not quite obviously remove condition #2. Rather, it states that, if you're in the open, you can hide without something to hide behind - which is generally the role of cover.

Given that, I see no reason to believe that the HiPS rules trump the other rules of perception. Chiefly, I see no reason to believe that it trumps the "Darkvision and low-light vision can possibly see you anyway because to them there are no shadows" rule.

sfedi said:

BTW, a Light spell would negate the ability to HiPS within it's area, wouldn't it?

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A Light spell doesn't have an area. It has a target - an object it causes to glow like a torch.

So a Light spell only negates the ability to HiPS in a 20 foot radius if there's nothing in that 20 foot radius that a torch would cause to cast a shadow. ... like a person, for example.

-Hyp.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

It does not quite obviously remove condition #2. Rather, it states that, if you're in the open, you can hide without something to hide behind - which is generally the role of cover.

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Hmm? So are you saying that Hide In Plain Sight allows you to hide without cover... as long as you have concealment?

You can do that without Hide in Plain Sight!

-Hyp.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

It does not quite obviously remove condition #2. Rather, it states that, if you're in the open, you can hide without something to hide behind - which is generally the role of cover.

Click to expand...

It also states that "A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed." So, a shadowdancer can hide if he is being observed (i.e. if the observer can see him at all - partial or no cover or concealment), or if he doesn't have anything to hide behind (no cover). That only leaves total cover or concealment: The shadowdancer can't hide if he can't be seen.

Hypersmurf said:

Hmm? So are you saying that Hide In Plain Sight allows you to hide without cover... as long as you have concealment?

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No, it allows you to hide without cover if you're "in the open."

Len said:

It also states that "A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed." So, a shadowdancer can hide if he is being observed (i.e. if the observer can see him at all - partial or no cover or concealment)

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Err, no.

If you are standing down a dark alley, you have concealment, and can hide.

If you're standing next to me, walk down the dark alley, and then try to hide, you can't - because I'm observing you - even though you have concealment.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

Err, no.

If you are standing down a dark alley, you have concealment, and can hide.

If you're standing next to me, walk down the dark alley, and then try to hide, you can't - because I'm observing you - even though you have concealment.

Click to expand...

Unless, of course, you have Hide In Plain Sight, which is what this thread is about.