Natural Attack + Monk

I am trying to figure out what the effects of a character who has a race that provides a natural attack (2 actually, bite for 1d3 and claw for 1d4).

Anyway, the character is also a monk. What are your thoughts regarding the fact that the DMG indicates that Natural Attacks occur on top of regular attacks. And would the damage for the claw change since it is a monk who normally has a base damage of 1d6.

Thoughts please

And would the damage for the claw change since it is a monk who normally has a base damage of 1d6?

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No. Monk levels advance unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are two completely different things.

And yes, you can attack with your natural weapons in addition to your monk strikes when you make a full attack, but it's important to note that natural weapons are neither unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, so you can't use them in conjunction with a Flurry of Blows.

Consider it very very strongly before allowing a race/template that has natural attacks the ability to becoome a Monk, even if it is claw damage. The technicality is that the Monk does NOT have to use his hands to do all his unarmed attacks. This means, say a Half-Dragon Template, that at level 1, a full attack for the Monk would be 2 claw attacks at full BAB (because they are his primary natural attacks) + bite at -5 (secondary natural) + his normal attacks (Flurry or otherwise).

A centaur Monk is one of the scariest creatures out there. Large, huge stat bonuses (all suited for Monks too) and 2 pretty nasty natural attacks that does not involve his hands. This means he can Two-Weapon Fight on top of his Flurry and natural attacks and at high levels, it will get insane, particularly since his huge Str bonus will more than negate the to-hit penalty of TWF.

I usually give it a lot of thought before allowing Monks in my campaigns as a general rule.

I would think that attacking with a Manufactured weapon (IE Unarmed Strikes, well, not exactly manufactured, but...) would be the primary, and you'd get your iteratives; then, all natural attacks are at -5 to that (considered secondary).

You might be right. Then, there is the Multiattack feat that will reduce it to -2 only. That is nothing for most creatures that do have a natural attack. The Half-Dragon template will overcome that easily with its +8 Str. As will the Centaur.


A Monk's unarmed attack can be considered manufactured OR natural as he desires. It is affected by Magic Weapon AND Magic Fang, IIRC.

Here's my house rule for monks with natural attacks:

If the monk has claw or rake attacks (only), he can choose to do slashing damage with his unarmed strikes, which cannot be nonlethal. He can change his choice before attacking, as a free action. The damage is either his claw damage or unarmed damage (whichever is higher). It is common for martial arts to mimick animal attacks, so it's silly not to factor actual claws in.

The above also goes for a monk wearing spiked gauntlets (no silly "this is not a monk weapon" nonsense).

And a monk wearing gauntlets attacks as if unarmed (including damage). The only benefit he gets is if the gauntlets are made of special materials, or are enchanted.

All of the above apply only if the monk attacks with the apropriate appendage (like punching with gauntlets, but nt kicking).

Caeleddin said:

Consider it very very strongly before allowing a race/template that has natural attacks the ability to becoome a Monk, even if it is claw damage.

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Actually, I've found that being firmly grounded in the rules is an even better way to do this.

A monk unarmed strike - or, hell, any unarmed strike - is not a claw attack. Therefore, RAW, you cannot use a claw attack to make an unarmed strike.

If you are using manufactured weapons (and unarmed strike counts as one), you may only use natural weapons as a secondary natural attacks.

Thus, a monk with a claw / claw / bite routine may *either* claw, claw, bite as normal or monk attack + (claw, claw, bite as secondary weapons).

EDITED: Man ... I was off on this one!

Ok, lets say we have a Half Dragon Monk at first level.
The natural attack is Claw/Claw Bite (D4/D4 D3)
The unarmed attack is with his fist (D6)

When he takes a standard action, he gets one attack. This could be either a claw, a bite or a punch. All at his normal attack.

When he takes a full action, he gets all of his attacks. 2 claws, 1 bite and 1 full attack routine. The 2 claws are at his normal attack, the bite is at his normal attack -5, (Unless he has multiattack, then it is at -2), and his punches are at nis normal attack (Unless he uses fury, then it is at -2 each).

Now, his bite is piercing, his claws are slashing and his punch is bludgening.
Now I read some where that if a creature has Damage Resistance say, 5/blunt (like Skeletons), then natural attacks are not effected by it. What if the creature has 5/1 or just 5/-?

Also, the claw and bite are lethal damage, and don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Have I got all this right? It seems like a huge advantage!

No, when you use a manufactured weapon (one you can get iterative attacks with, like your unarmed strike) that one is your primary weapon. The, all natural attacks are considered secondary.

A half-dragon with a level of monk can do -

Primary Attack - Kick at full BAB (1d6+str), [any other kicks he gets for flurry/BAB]
Natural attacks - 2 Claws at -5 BAB (1d4 + 1/2 strength)
1 Bite at -5 BAB (1d3 + 1/2 strength)

Multiattack can lower the penalties on the natural attacks to -2, and I believe there is an Improved Multiattack feat (maybe in Draconomicon?) that lowers the penalty to -0.

In addition, Bite attacks do all 3 types of damage (PSB), and monk attacks can also do lethal damage with no penalty : ).

I've never heard of the rule about natural attacks bypassing damage reduction.

BalazarIago said:

Ok, lets say we have a Half Dragon Monk at first level.
The natural attack is Claw/Claw Bite (D4/D4 D3)
The unarmed attack is with his fist (D6)

When he takes a standard action, he gets one attack. This could be either a claw, a bite or a punch. All at his normal attack.

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No.

His primary natural weapons are his Claws. His *secondary* natural weapon is his bite.

If he attacks with a claw, he attacks at his normal AB with that weapon, and applies his Strength bonus normally. If he attacks with his bite, he suffers a -5 penalty to AB and may only apply .5x his Str bonus. (Unless he takes the multiattack feat, in which case the penalty decreases to -2.)

SRD said:

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

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If he attacks with an unarmed attack (not a "punch"), then treat that normally.

When he takes a full action, he gets all of his attacks. 2 claws, 1 bite and 1 full attack routine. The 2 claws are at his normal attack, the bite is at his normal attack -5, (Unless he has multiattack, then it is at -2), and his punches are at nis normal attack (Unless he uses fury, then it is at -2 each).

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No. When he takes a full-attack action, he needs to decide what he's attacking with.

If it's his natural weapons, the he gets his 2x claws as normal and the bite at -5 and .5 Strength. (As you say, with the Multiattack feat, he can reduce the penalty to -2 on his bite).

If, instead, he wants to use his monk attacks, he must use them as his primary attack.

SRD said:

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks.

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If, at this point, he also wants to use his natural weapons, they are all treated as secondary attacks. They suffer a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack) on their attack rolls and may only apply .5 Str bonus to damage.

Note that, depending on what weapons the monk is wielding, his claw attacks may not be available. For reference, here's the Cornugon from the MM:

SRD said:

Attack: Spiked chain +25 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) or claw +24 melee (2d6+10) or tail +24 melee (2d6+10 plus infernal wound)

Full Attack: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound); or 2 claws +24 melee (2d6+10) and bite + 22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

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When attacking with his spiked chain (a two-handed weapon), his claws are not available.

Should the monk flurry:

SRD said:

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

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Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, and so may not be used when the monk is flurrying.

Now, his bite is piercing, his claws are slashing and his punch is bludgening.
Now I read some where that if a creature has Damage Resistance say, 5/blunt (like Skeletons), then natural attacks are not effected by it. What if the creature has 5/1 or just 5/-?

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DR 5 / bludgeoning is overcome by any bludgeoning weapon.

Bites are piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning, and so would overcome such DR.
Claws are slashing and piercing, and so would not overcome such DR.
Unarmed Strikes are bludgeoning, and so would overcome such DR.

Also, the claw and bite are lethal damage, and don't provoke attacks of opportunity.

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Correct.

EDIT:

In summation, assuming he isn't wielding any weapons, he may do the following:

• Single Attack, Standard Action
  1. Unarmed Strike, normal AB, normal Str
  2. Claw, normal AB, normal Str
  3. Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
• Full-attack, Full-round Action
  1. Natural attacks: 2x Claw, normal AB, normal Str; Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
  2. Monk attack: normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks
  3. Monk attack with natural attack: Monk, normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks; 2x Claw, -5 AB, .5 Str; Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
  4. Monk Flurry: normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks