High level charecters in battle: the Air Power analogy

In a few recent threads, and more then a few past ones, modern analogies have been used to describe (guestimate) the impact that magic and high level charecters would have on the battlefield or the beseiged castle or city.

I say the best analogy, which I haven't seen much, is air power. Mid to high level charecters (HLCs) are like fighter-bombers, with great mobiliy and fire power, but also great cost, relative to warriors or other low levels charecters that would (or could) make up the bulk of a typical army.

The analogy implies that, like dog-fighting aircraft, HLCs would end up spending a lot of time trying to neutralise each other. Sure a 10d6 fireball can kill a lot of grunts, but it would do an average of 30hps of damage to charectes with 4-6 each. Think of all the damage being wasted! This is even more true with a lot of other attacks/spells/etc.

If a side got HLC supremacy, then yes they could do a lot of damage. It doesn't mean that HLCs alone "win wars", but they could devastate large concentrations of troops, assuming that the advantage was great enough.

However, like high end aircraft or heliocopters, HLCs also remain highly vunrable. If the HLC does have to try to take out a 1000 longbowman, he or she will be at risk: a 20 always hits. And there may be the equivelent of "anti-aircraft weapons" basic tactics and maybe low end magic designed to take out HLCs (or at least fend them off)

Finaly, this also implies that "ground" (or sea) combat could still occur in at least a somewhat normal fashion, with conventional armies battling it out as the HLCs do there thing. Not that they wouldn't have some impact on tactics.

thats my 2 cents. Discuss

It's a good analogy, although really high-level pcs, especially casters, might be likened to tactical nukes. After all, a well-played high-level druid can wipe out thousands very easily.

I'd agree nukes is more like it... at least for high level spellcasters.

Fighters are dangerous, but even with ideal conditions an enlarged whirlwind attacking spike chain fighter can't kill more than about 60 a round.

IMO, another real killer is mobility and intelligence. Scrying/communications magic could totally change the course of a war. Targeted teleport assasination raids really are the ultimate in precision strikes. Although both of these are not too difficult to prevent.

All in all, I supose high level characters are more like a superhero team?


On the 1000 archers thing. On average 50 of them will hit an uber AC character. Of those, 2.5 will be crits. (20 + 20). The DR 10 from stoneskin would negate any 'normal' hit... so 2.5 hits/volley is all they have to worry about?

Add in something like improved invisibility and that number is going to plummet towards zero rather rapidly.

I supose the best way for a side losing the HLC war is to give the other sides HLCs too many things to do.

For example an orc horde could send a large number of teams off roaming around the countryside to butcher randomly. Sure there's quite a few HLCs that would feel obliged to try and stop them. Leave the normal fighting up to the army?

Get your remaining mage to open a Gate to hell. Leave it open and see what wanders in.

Stuff like that... although I guess it's far more workable for the bad guys?

Inconsequenti-AL said:

Stuff like that... although I guess it's far more workable for the bad guys?

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Not necessarily. You can produce the same effect by having a good kingdom send in mulitple strike forces for different strategic locations, supply lines, etc. You can use the same strategy, just with different specific targets.

Dudes,
For all the Sorcerer bashing that goes on around here, a Sorcerer is the Definition of a mobile artillery platform. I had one reach 17th, who took all "blast em" spells, and in any type of conflict he was UGLY

Inconsequenti-AL said:

I'd agree nukes is more like it... at least for high level spellcasters.

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I dunno. A modern bomber hasn't been pointed at a proper army, to the best of my knowledge. I'm thinking the tonnage of well-aimed abuse carried by a single bomber is probably on par, if not in excess, with a 20th level mage. Heck, I figure the 2" rockets carried by the apache are a fireball each, and the apaches often carry several dozen.

Fighters are dangerous, but even with ideal conditions an enlarged whirlwind attacking spike chain fighter can't kill more than about 60 a round.

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Use supreme cleave. With 10' reach and a 60' movement you take out 84 people. 132 people if you can get 15' reach and still attack things wtihin 5' (such as with a natural weapon or improved unarmed striked). Fear my giant samurai wearing boots of S&S. Heck, fear *any* giant samurai!

Inconsequenti-AL said:

On the 1000 archers thing. On average 50 of them will hit an uber AC character. Of those, 2.5 will be crits. (20 + 20). The DR 10 from stoneskin would negate any 'normal' hit... so 2.5 hits/volley is all they have to worry about?

Add in something like improved invisibility and that number is going to plummet towards zero rather rapidly.

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Stoneskin ablates - effectively it's 10hp/caster level extra to the HLC. 1000 archers with (obviously) Rapid Shot (human War-1 gets 2 feats - PB shot + rapid) = 2000 shots = 100 hits/round, IMC they'd be average ST 14 w mighty +2 bow for 1d8+2 = 6.5 damage/hit. Stoneskin max = 150 hp, so 23 hits will negate that, the other 77 including the 5 crits go straight to damage, effectively 87 hits x 6.5 = average 565.5 damage to the HLC... in one round. Now, with Imp Invisibility they can only fire at him if they know he's there, if they're firing at the generally correct area, 50% still automatically miss, so only 50 hits/round, so only 27 penetrate stoneskin on the first round, plus 2.5 crits is effectively 32 hits x 6.5 = 208 damage, which many Ftr-20s will survive. I doubt the HLC will want to stick around too long, though.

the Jester said:

It's a good analogy, although really high-level pcs, especially casters, might be likened to tactical nukes. After all, a well-played high-level druid can wipe out thousands very easily.

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That's if they don't mob him in melee with Aid Another + Grapple.

VirgilCaine said:

That's if they don't mob him in melee with Aid Another + Grapple.

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Which doesn't really work. A high level fighter or druid has enough base attack (and STR; druids can also have size with Natural Spell) to shrug off most grapples from level 1 warriors even when completely surrounded. With Combat Reflexes, they can even kill people faster if they use that tactic. Finally, many spellcasters will have Freedom of Movement.