making firearms more deadly (deadlier?)

I'll be honest, I've never been a big fan of the way d20 handles firearms. Most of the time they are just glorified crossbows and they don't really evoke the kind of fear I want in a game. I also have an idea for a setting in which firearms do exist, but they are very rare and perhaps even illegal for the "general public" to own. I want the PC's to be afraid when a BBEG pulls out some kind of nasty slug-thrower.

One of my really simple ideas involves using the VP/WP system (which I will most likely be using in my next homebrew campaign).

My proposed changed is that any weapon classified as a firearm inflicts VP as well as WP damage. My thought is that you can try to dodge out of the way but if you get hit, it's tough to "roll" with a slug to the chest. I also plan to use armor as DR that reduces WP damage only.

The only caveat to this is explaining the "it's only a flesh wound" cirumstance. I guess that could be interpreted with the damage roll of the weapon but VP is supposed to represent the hero's ability to turn a lethal blow into something minor (a la a flesh wound).

Another idea is to just increase the damage of firearms but with the VP/WP system, it isn't really a question of straight damage.

My purpose isn't to completely rewrite the firearm damage rules, just to make them deadlier so that even a high-level hero will think twice about some punk with a gun.

Glassjaw,

Here is what I did ot make them scary. All firearms ignore all armor. Magic armor is no benefit. The PC's AC is simply 10 + Dex modifier.

Certain spells can affect the bullet: all spells with Deflection bonuses stack with the base armor class and Dex, but the Deflection is only half of what the spell awards normally (e.g., Ring of Prot +2 yields +1 AC, but a Ring +1 yields no bonus). Displacement effects still work against the bullet. Natural armor bonuses stack with no penalty. Shield stacks with no penalty.

Magic armor struck by the bullet can eventually damage the armor and render it ineffective until repaired. 2 bullet strikes remove a +1 from the magic AC, and a critical hit removes +2.

I also have the PC roll a d12 to assign the location of the bullet strike:
1-2 = left arm
3-4 = rt arm
5-6 = rt leg
7-8 = rt arm
9 = belly
10 = chest
11= neck
12 = head

If a creature has wings and need to roll the d12, I just say a 9 = the body, a 10 = the head and 11 & 12 are the wings.

Sometimes a bullet strike to an arm doesn't damage the magic armor, and the PC's really liked that! Take a flesh wound, but spare the armor.

Be sure to talk talk it over with them first as it is real easy to get a head or heart shot and kill them dead with one bullet.

I also play with hero/action points so once in a while a deadly shot can be countered. To keep it deadly though, None of the players ever has more than 2 hero points, and they can't be shared around. And they are hard to come by in the first place - only heroic acts and fearless behavior earn a Point.

YMMV, of course.

In d20 Modern, I just lowered the MDT. Instead of being equal to your Con score, it is equal to 10 + your Con bonus.

GlassJaw said:

I'll be honest, I've never been a big fan of the way d20 handles firearms. Most of the time they are just glorified crossbows and they don't really evoke the kind of fear I want in a game.

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But early firearms aren't much more than noisy crossbows. The militaries of the time often had equal numbers of arquebusiers and crossbowmen; the Spanish conquistadors, for instance, did.

The biggest differences between early firearms and crossbows are that:

• Firearms make a lot of noise and a lot of smoke.
• Firearms can punch through plate armor (at close range).
• Firearms have light, compact ammo.

They're both easy to use, but slow to reload.

With that in mind, you might give firearms an attack bonus (only to offset armor and natural armor).

The real issue is that D&D's combat system makes it easy to hit, but hard to hurt your opponent, and that doesn't match the feel we want for firearms, where you may not be likely to get hit, but if you do get hit, you're hurt.

I have been contemplating this one myself. Making all firearms a ranged touch attack gives them an advantage, target is more likely to get hit, but if you are going to balance that then you need to make them much more expensive than they are in most d20 books, including the DMG. Increasing a threat range might work, but I don't think that either of those ideas really translates well to the "harder to hit, but more damage" idea.
I have read lots of ideas in d20 for early firearms but I am with GlassJaw in that I don't think any of them make guns scary.

I suppose you could take the Dex modifier away from the ranged attack (to represent the unpredictablity of early firearms), make all attacks with firarms touch attacks, and maybe increase the HD of damage dealt.

More thought and input is needed.

The real issue is that D&D's combat system makes it easy to hit, but hard to hurt your opponent, and that doesn't match the feel we want for firearms, where you may not be likely to get hit, but if you do get hit, you're hurt.

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I have read lots of ideas in d20 for early firearms but I am with GlassJaw in that I don't think any of them make guns scary.

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Well both of these comments hint at some of the problem the d20 system has with firearms: hit points and armor making you more difficult to "hit".

With enough hit points, PC's will have no fear of firearms. Or at least they won't react to them any differently than weapons like swords and crossbows. I know hp's are supposed to represent battle fatigue and luck and stuff like that but it's too abstract for firearms IMO.

That's why I like the VP/WP system and armor as DR, especially for a grittier campaign. With VP/WP, you still have the luck/merely a flesh wound concept (VP's) but there are times when you are going to take a direct physical wound, regardless of your level or how many VP's you have. I think a system in which a firearm has a chance to deal direct WP damage (without necessarily scoring a crit) would be best.

I wonder though if it's really needed at all. I mean is there anything about a gun that makes it deadlier than a crossbow or a sword? Does the bullet travel faster than a crossbow bolt?Does it inflict more damage? Is there anything in the "real world" to justify that a firearm would (or should) have a mechanical advantage in-game?

In d20 Modern, I just lowered the MDT. Instead of being equal to your Con score, it is equal to 10 + your Con bonus.

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But that doesn't make firearms any different than any other weapon.

GlassJaw said:

I mean is there anything about a gun that makes it deadlier than a crossbow or a sword? Does the bullet travel faster than a crossbow bolt? Does it inflict more damage? Is there anything in the "real world" to justify that a firearm would (or should) have a mechanical advantage in-game?

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An early arquebus shoots a 45-gram lead ball at 300 m/s (~1000 ft/s). A crossbow shoots a 125-gram bolt at 45 m/s (~150 ft/s). That's 2000 joules of kinetic energy versus 127. And that's why soft, blunt, lead balls can go right through a steel breastplate (at short range).

GlassJaw said:

But that doesn't make firearms any different than any other weapon.

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Exactly what additional effect should you want firearms to inflict on targeted victims? A psychological trauma effect? If that is the case, Holistic Design d20: Afghanistan have rules on shock, which work on gunfire and artillery fire (hence the term "shell-shocked").

GlassJaw said:

Well both of these comments hint at some of the problem the d20 system has with firearms: hit points and armor making you more difficult to "hit". [...] That's why I like the VP/WP system and armor as DR, especially for a grittier campaign. With VP/WP, you still have the luck/merely a flesh wound concept (VP's) but there are times when you are going to take a direct physical wound, regardless of your level or how many VP's you have. I think a system in which a firearm has a chance to deal direct WP damage (without necessarily scoring a crit) would be best.

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You might want to use a system where hitting means hitting (attacks vs. "touch" AC w/ Ref bonus) and hurting depends on an Injury Save (based on Fort).

Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this one of the big reasons I like Alternity. It replaces hit points with a "durability" system that classifies damage as fatigue, stun, wounds, and mortal damage. The points are based on attributes, and don't ramp up with experience like d20.

Damage from a firearm will depend on how good the shot was. Alternity has degrees of success in using a weapon. A perfect shot may yield serious mortal damage and very possibly kill the target with a single bullet. A lousy shot may hit the target, but only stun him.

Success is based on your character's skill with that particular weapon. Circumstances like the target's movement and cover, your movement and position, etc. will make success more difficult, but there is no AC-based to-hit number. Armor acts solely as DR.

Part of what makes this deadly is secondary damage -- enough of one type leads to the more serious type. And vice versa. Add to this, optional "dazed" rules in which your character suffers penalties to his attempted actions after suffering too much damage.

The combination of factors makes it a very good idea to get out of the way of someone waving a gun at you.

Carl