balancing the Gnoll

Hi,

following up on the thread earlier this week,

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=133283

I've been asking myself what would make the Gnoll comparable to other 2 hit die + 1 level adjustment (3 ECL) races, and fit them in the overall progression. I'm not looking to make Gnolls overpowered, and am even content to have them a bit on the low side of the balance equation. Given that some change is agreed to be desirable, I'm looking for MINIMUM changes to make the Gnoll viable.

Here are suggestions, and I'd appreciate any thoughts. I'm happy to give my rationalizations for any of this if asked.

scenario a. removing the LA, keeping the 2 hit dice.

Gnoll, as written, with the following additons:
1. the addition of two more class skills available, jump and survival.
2. changing the natural armour from +1 to +2.

However, as was pointed out, there are really no creatures with hit dice but with a level adjustment of +0. Thus, if the LA is seen as necessary, I would suggest

scenario b. 2 hit dice + 1 LA.

1. as above
2. as above.
3. the additon of a secondary bite attack, 1d4.
4. Scent ability.

To my mind, that puts the gnoll just below Lizard folk.

Thoughts? Preferences between these two?

Kobold Stew.

I do not feel that the Gnoll is worthy of its ECL of 3 as written. IMO, I just removed the +1 level adjustment as I think the only quality that a Gnoll has over and above other races is the extra racial HD.

You may also have a variant Gnoll race in your campaign that is slightly smaller, with only 1 HD that could be changed to a Class HD if the Gnoll variant entered a profession. This is my preferred method and I still do not feel that the other racial qualities earn it anything more than a possible +1 LA even in this case.

Slightly off tangent, but how is a Bugbear a CR2, and an Ogre as well? Seems like the Ogre is much more stronger and even has reach...

RigaMortus2 said:

Slightly off tangent, but how is a Bugbear a CR2, and an Ogre as well? Seems like the Ogre is much more stronger and even has reach...

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Ogre was changed to CR 3 in 3.5. 'cause, just as you said, 2 was too low.

How does the gnoll look without the HD? How about have the gnoll just be a +1 LA race?

Gnoll variant could be a minor variant within gnoll society that is slightly less imposing at first glance, but has greater potential in the professional fields (classes). They would probably be a ruling class within Gnoll society.

Info taken initially from FR Unapproachable East ( I think the latest WOTC book to include Gnoll as a race for PC's).

I think a Gnoll variant with only 1 HD that is modified to a character class HD when the Gnoll takes a profession is fine. Since it removes the HD, it would remove the feat granted, the racial skill points, and the changes to the BAB & Saves. This puts the Gnoll character as only having: +4STR, +2CON, -2INT, -2CHA, +1 Natual Armor, Darkvision, and a couple of Weapon Familiarities. I hardly think this is worthy of the +1LA, just comparing to the abilities standard Dwarves get - I would make this version +0.

To keep the +1LA I would suggest some other bonuses, possibly Scent Feat as noted above, and/or a poison/disease save bonus (ie strong resistance to poison/disease from eating questionable food - hyena scavenger type background)

smootrk said:

I think a Gnoll variant with only 1 HD that is modified to a character class HD when the Gnoll takes a profession is fine. Since it removes the HD, it would remove the feat granted, the racial skill points, and the changes to the BAB & Saves. This puts the Gnoll character as only having: +4STR, +2CON, -2INT, -2CHA, +1 Natual Armor, Darkvision, and a couple of Weapon Familiarities. I hardly think this is worthy of the +1LA, just comparing to the abilities standard Dwarves get - I would make this version +0.

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As compared to 1/2 orcs?? +2 str, +2 con +1NAC how is this not worthy of +1 LA, what is?
I agree that the 2 racial HD suck.

Evilhalfling said:

As compared to 1/2 orcs?? +2 str, +2 con +1NAC how is this not worthy of +1 LA, what is?
I agree that the 2 racial HD suck.

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Half orc weak when compared to the dwarf personally I'd go 1HD, drop Weapon familiarity too.

SO we have Gnoll Medium Humanoid Str +4 Con +2 Int -2 Cha -2 Nat Armour +1 LA +0

Evilhalfling said:

As compared to 1/2 orcs?? +2 str, +2 con +1NAC how is this not worthy of +1 LA, what is?
I agree that the 2 racial HD suck.

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I don't think the stats warrant a +1LA. In addition, the abilities that 1/2Orcs get are paltry as well, and I believe they need something more to stand up against races like the Dwarves, Elves, Gnome, Halflings, who all have substantially better abilities & bonuses. Just because the bonus for 1/2 Orcs is in STR and CON (and Gnolls too) they get a raw deal???

So Yes. If you compare to a Half-Orc, +1LA is warranted.... but if you compare to a Dwarf, or even an Elf, I just don't think it is equal to the +1 adjustment.

Kobold Stew said:

However, as was pointed out, there are really no creatures with hit dice but with a level adjustment of +0.

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I don't know why this is, though - most of the medium humanoids like gnolls & bugbears should be ECL 0 IMO; their racial hit dice are about equal to class levels. 2hd Gnolls are CR 1, counting non-classed gnols as 2nd level for XP seems right to me. Likewise 3hd CR 2 bugbears, 3rd level is fine.