is a MDS needed with VP/WP?

As an extension of the firearms thread I started, I was wondering about combining a MDS with VP/WP.

MDS was suggested by many to accomplish a grittier feel. What I was wondering is whether it's necessary since with the VP/WP system, there is always a chance of an attack dealing WP damage directly (specifically with crits).

Would having a MDS in a VP/WP system be too much? If you did use a MDS, would failing it drop the PC to -1 WP or something else entirely?

I would say no, its not necessary.

Altering the MDT was a different way of accomplishing the same goal as VP/WP. So instead of having, essentially, two different pools of hit points that represented two different types of damage, very similar to Hero's Body and Stun, the idea was posited to simply alter the MDT.

This had the same effect (every hit had a chance to take you out if it was solid enough) but reduced the book keeping, eliminating the need to keep track of VP and WP.

If I'm not mistaken Monte Cook was the first to do this, in Call of Cthulhu d20.

Chuck

I wouldn't combine them - they're two different ways of accomplishing essentially the same thing. A low MDT is going to seem (though I don't know if it actually is) "grittier" than WP/VP, which will resultingly encourage characters to be less heroic over all.

I don't think that one system is superior to the other - they just work a little differently.

i find they work a lot differently - indeed WP/VP is more heroic because vitality heals much quicker than hit points.

a low MDT game means slow healing (compared to WP/VP at least) and runs about as lethal, IMO, as a WP/VP, if not a little more-so (depending on your MDT - I use the CoCd20 10 point MDT, myself).

Ditto the others -- if you're using VP/WP, I don't think you need Massive Damage. They're both in place to reflect the "One lucky hit can hurt you" idea, and having both of them just adds more work for everyone.

Maybe if you were playing something like Call of Cthulhu (or Delta Green), but otherwise, I would say no.

Cool, thanks for the advice. I was leaning in that direction but I just wanted to hear it.

On a similar topic, does anyone think the VP/WP system places too much emphasis on crits? I like the VP/WP system on paper but haven't seen it much in practice. I'm just wondering if all the players will grab the biggest crit weapon they can find, get Imp Crit as soon as they can, and save all their AP's to confirm crits.

The way I see it, you are replacing the MDT, which is easily met, and the MDS, which gets relatively easier at higher levels, with crits of the VP/WP system, which can be tough to pull off but are always potentially deadly.

I suppose that might be a problem, but the weapons with the bigger crit ranges tend to do less damage, so it probably evens out. And if they are hoarding their APs, then they aren't using them to save their butts. Even better, if they are burning all their APs to confirm crits, they won't have them to save thier butts

Also, isn't there a variation (too many to keep straight without the book in front of me anymore) that has all crit-ranges set to 20/no multiplier when using WP/VP? That would eliminate the cherry-picking to some degree.

My all-time favorite WP/VP though is still Dragonquest, where the crit chance was a percentage of your 'to hit' chance.

Also, isn't there a variation (too many to keep straight without the book in front of me anymore) that has all crit-ranges set to 20/no multiplier when using WP/VP?

Click to expand...

Well that's pretty much how it is by default. All weapons crit on 20 only and deal their listed damage in WP instead of VP.

The question is what to do about weapons with higher multipliers. There are essentially two choices: 1. keep the crit at 20 and increase their multiplier (so a x3 weapon would become a x2 weapon) or 2. increase the threat range by 1 (so a x3 weapon would crit on a 19-20).

My all-time favorite WP/VP though is still Dragonquest, where the crit chance was a percentage of your 'to hit' chance.

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with Dragonquest but what I was thinking of doing is to completely remove autohits. A 20 is not an automatic hit. If you roll a 20 and it would hit normally, you can spend an AP to confirm it. I'm also thinking about using opposed rolls. So you might roll a 20 but if your enemy has a high defense, there is a chance his result will be better than yours. More rolling also means more things to spend AP's on.

GlassJaw said:

Cool, thanks for the advice. I was leaning in that direction but I just wanted to hear it.

On a similar topic, does anyone think the VP/WP system places too much emphasis on crits? I like the VP/WP system on paper but haven't seen it much in practice. I'm just wondering if all the players will grab the biggest crit weapon they can find, get Imp Crit as soon as they can, and save all their AP's to confirm crits.

Click to expand...

This implies you are using AP with WP/VP, which if you're in Star Wars or using it in D&D isn't typical, simply disallow that use of AP's. Using AP's to confirm a critical hit isn't in the definition of AP's from d20 Modern. In normal d20M an AP just adds 1d6 to a d20 roll or activate a class feature that requires the expenditure of an AP. There is the Power Crit feat from Urban Arcana that lets you spend an AP to confirm a crit, but that's from UA so it was meant for games with a lot of magical healing and big monsters running around. A game that allows Power Crit and VP/WP is asking for trouble.

The typical MDT of d20 Modern also places a large emphasis on crits, since a critical hit from most weapons will force an MDT save from most characters, and that Improved Critical isn't in core d20 Modern either.

In my experience, VP/WP works well for modern games with low magic, so that there is not a huge reliance on magical healing after every fight, and it's a lot better at describing action from a storytelling and dramatic perspective.