To build a Living Greyhawk elven archer

So what is the best build?

I am of the opinion that Arcane Archers are utterly worthless. I would think you could get far more out of a an eldrich knight with the craft arms and armor feat.

So the only other available archery PrC that I know about (available in LG) is the Order of the Bow Initiate - its a real shame they don't still have deepwood sniper - that PrC was awesome. I don't know if the Order of the Bow Initiate is really worth it though.

Their main power is their ranged precision ability. The benefit here is that every round you can move and get an attack that deals a lot of damage. However, I don't think the design of the OotBI is all that great (like the Arcane Archer). I am going for a sniper type archer and the OotBI simply is not designed for that. They are designed for close range combat (since the RP ability is limited to 30' until 10th level). The real power in sniping is when you are at a great distance because of the huge penalty on spot checks. Also, the sharpshooting ability is trumped by other feats such as Elhonna's Way, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot. The only other good ability they have that I can see is the close combat shot - but this completely defeats the point of the sniper.

I am thinking that a straight ranger, or ranger/cleric would be a better build for a sniper than any of the PrC's offer. That or a Ranger/Wizard/Eldrich Knight.

If I go with the Ranger or Ranger/Cleric, I'd take wood elf, max out spot, listen, hide and move silently and probably take even levles for the multiclass. I was thinking the feats (including bonus feats from classes) would be track, point blank shot, rapid shot, endurance, precise shot, elhonna's way, woodland archery, many shot, and improved rapid shot (altering order for the class version).

Any suggestions?

There is no "best" build.

If you want to deal damage, straight-up, from round 1 without stopping, play a fighter. You could start with two levels of ranger if you want a few skills, but then you'd want to go to fighter 12 for greater weapon specialization.

If you want to deal a moderate amount of damage and have a lot of flexibility, a multiclass ranger with four levels of fighter or three levels of pious templar is the way to go. Darkwood Stalker is a pretty good choice for a prestige class with full BAB and good skills and sneak attack that you'll be able to use once in a blue moon.

If you want a caster with a lot of flexibility, cleric is the way to go. If you play a wood elf, you can have the essential point blank and precise shot feats by level 3 and rapid shot at level 6--a human cleric of Phaulkon will be able to get rapid shot by level three and could take Zen Archery and ignore dex if he didn't mind being pathetic outside of 30'. Either build will want quicken spell for a quickened divine favor.

A fighter/wizard is not a really good way to do an archer since most of the best fighter/wizard abilities (wraithstrike spell, Arcane Strike feat, Channel Spell spellsword ability,whirling blade spell, etc) are melee only. However, with Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, Flame Arrow, Sonic Weapon, Arrow Mind, etc, you could probably make a decent run of it. The only trouble is that you're probably better off just casting scorching rays, enervations and empowered scorching rays if you've got a lot of caster levels and the archery buffs won't be too good if you don't.

Gaiden said:

...its a real shame they don't still have deepwood sniper...

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I suppose, this only means the LG, right? Since the PrC has been reprinted in the complete series IIRC.

...feats such as Elhonna's Way...

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Where is this feat from?

Ranger/Fighter probably works well enough, 1-2 levels of Ranger, then 4 levels of Fighter, then going back to Ranger.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

I suppose, this only means the LG, right? Since the PrC has been reprinted in the complete series IIRC.

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Nope, Deepwood Sniper hasn't been reprinted. I am curious where Ehlonna's Way is from though.

Elhonna's Way is a cool feat. It is from Dragon 315 and paizo is going to publish it in .pdf format available to everyone so I don't think there is a problem with me reproducing it.

Elhonna's Way [General]

Regions: Celene, high elf, Highfolk, wild elf, wood elf
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on Hide and Survival checks made in woodland areas. You get a +4 bonus on attacks against enemies who have cover from trees or plants (essentially invalidating the target's cover bonus). You still cannot hit creatures with total cover.

The feat is abusable because based on the language of the text the +4 modifier is a bonus to your roll and not a reduction of the penalty so would be stackable with improved precise shot (which eliminates the penalty). The paranthetical text does not say that the +4 bonus is required to invalidate the cover bonus but winds up doing so. However, that doesn't really make much sense to me and if I were the DM I'd rule zero. Because I am going with the archery combat route for the Ranger, the second portion of this feat becomes worthless, so I am in fact not going to take it.

Thanks Elder Basalisk, btw, I didn't think about a straight Ranger/Fighter mix. That probably is the best way to go to retain flexibility with skills, maintain BAB, and increase dmg output.

Here is my feat selection (including bonus feats from both classes):

Woodelf Ranger X/Fighter 4 (feats selected up to 15th level)

28 point buy: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 14, Chr 8

Track, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus - Composite Long Bow, Precise Shot, Improved Initiative, Endurance, Woodland Archery, Weapon Specialization - Composite Long Bow, Improved Critical - Composite Long Bow, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will

The ranger spells available with the advent of Races of the Wild and Complete Adventure absolutely rock. You can gain the ability of the Arcane Archer with Arrow Storm, a 1 rd whirlwind attack using a sword (which is better than whirlwind because if you are using 2 weapons you can basically get 2 whirlwinds), get spells that boost your hide, MS, spot, and listen checks, get an improved version of spiderclimb if you have ranks in balance, etc.

I am almost inclined to ditch the 4 levels of fighter in favor of gaining spell access quicker. However, the Weapon Specialization is simply going to be used too often - ever arrow fired.

I will boost Str to 18, and either Dex to 20 or Con to 10 - depending on how things go throught out this guys career.

If anyone has suggestions for better feat choices, let me know. Also, keep in mind that in LG, you can buy equipment bewteen adventures so I can truly tailor the equipment my character has throughout his adventuring career.

Can I build Legolas?

I had a couple of other ideas with this character: I could switch out a feat for able sniper. The feat seems pretty useful but I wanted to play the character before selecting this feat for sure to see if I could effectively snipe with the character. If I get an oathbow, sniping may be more effective. However, without any significant way to increase my damage with one attack, I am not sure how effective sniping will be. I might just want to be really far away and hail down arrows from the sky before the opponent can reach me.

I have the dex and str to make TWF'ing effective. I would not take the TWF'ing path because of the uselessness of the improved and greater TWF'ing feats (why would I want to take a feat down a feat chain that is less powerful than the initial feat). However, TWF'ing in and of itself is a nice feat - and certainly pulls off the Legolas image . I was thinking with the feat selection I have currently just going for a great axe or 2 handed sword or maybe a longspear (better image with the wood elf). The problem I see is the realisticness of lugging around a long bow and another 2-handed weapon. Carrying 2 elven light blades, or an elven thinblade and elven light blade seems more realistic to me. If I go ahead and take two elven light blades, I truly am going to be Legolas (I'd switch out Improved Initiative with Two Weapon Fighting and Iron Will with Racial Familiarity).

Any suggestions on how to make the character more versatile with feats?

Thanee said:

I suppose, this only means the LG, right? Since the PrC has been reprinted in the complete series IIRC.

Bye
Thanee

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There's a Darkwoods Stalker, but that is more of an anti-orc elven only class and definitely not a bow focused class.

Sack that 18 dex for 12 con, please. And I'm not sure what you mean by "tailor your equipment between adventures"? Are you thinking of Green Regent or Eberron Mark Campaigns where you can totally change out equipment? LG you just buy stuff and then can sell it at half price. Its actually a magic item poor campaign on the whole.

Also, consider what region you are in, some are so heavy in particular monsters that favored enemy might be more useful than weapon specialization. Improved favored enemy from CW would let you do +5 and +7 against two different monster types by 5th level. Rangers get a lot of benefits and straight ranger is a very good path to go for archers even if they are only doing 90% of the damage a fighter would.

Testament said:

Nope, Deepwood Sniper hasn't been reprinted.

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Hmm... ok. Must have mixed it up with another class then, I guess.

Bye
Thanee

HighlandsBear said:

Sack that 18 dex for 12 con, please. And I'm not sure what you mean by "tailor your equipment between adventures"? Are you thinking of Green Regent or Eberron Mark Campaigns where you can totally change out equipment? LG you just buy stuff and then can sell it at half price. Its actually a magic item poor campaign on the whole.

Also, consider what region you are in, some are so heavy in particular monsters that favored enemy might be more useful than weapon specialization. Improved favored enemy from CW would let you do +5 and +7 against two different monster types by 5th level. Rangers get a lot of benefits and straight ranger is a very good path to go for archers even if they are only doing 90% of the damage a fighter would.

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Why do I want a 12 con. I don't foresee my character in a lot of melee and I already have good F saves. If anything I just need an item that increases my base speed and/or Mobility. Don't forget, the main point of this character is a sniper. So I would generally be far away from foes (except in dungeon crawls) because I have no need to be within 30' (no S.A. or ranged precision).

Does improved favored enemy work with all favored enemies or only against one? I thought it was only against one..

I am well aware of the LG rules (just read the campaing sourcebook cover to cover). What you outline is exactly what I am talking about - the fact that you can buy whatever magic items you want is plenty tailored for me. At least it is tailored relative to the last campaign I played in where we didn't have any magical equipment (we were about 8 levels behind the appropriate wealth rating for our party level) and couldn't buy anything but the most inexpensive of magical items (scrolls and potions with no scroll above 5th level when our party was 13th level). The ability to buy what we want means that I can buy a magical bow for my archer, gloves of dexterity, bracers of archery, wands of cure light wounds, etc.