sneak attack damage/extra damage dice and the VP/WP system

Here's another thread as I continue on my quest to alter, tweak, gut, and disembowel the d20 hp/damage system.

Since SW doesn't have many instances of sneak attack damage (none of the core classes have it, I think one PrC does IIRC), there aren't really any special rules for handling sneak attack damage in the case of a critical hit. Even a sneak attack of 1d6 or 2d6 has a good chance of killing someone outright.

UA suggests toning down sneak attack damage (or extra damage dice) for critical hits, specifically granting a +1 bonus to the WP damage. I kind of like that rule.

Now my question is what if the character has very few VP's left and they get hit with a sneak attack? Let's say they have 5 VP's left and they get hit with a 5d6 sneak attack. They don't have many VP's left to absorb that attack. Even if they have a high Con score, there is a good chance they are going to be dropped into negative WP's.

So does this make sneak attack damage too powerful in the VP/WP system? Should sneak attack damage be reduced as soon as the damage enters WP territory?

GlassJaw said:

So does this make sneak attack damage too powerful in the VP/WP system? Should sneak attack damage be reduced as soon as the damage enters WP territory?

Click to expand...

In OCR Star Wars, you couldn't go below 0 WP, which meant that that Scoundrel 2/Soldier 5/Bounty Hunter 10 who opens fire on you for his 3d8+5d6 from a sneak attack with a blaster rifle, even on a critical hit, won't drop you below 0, instead you just have to make a saving throw to survive.

RCR, with it's -10 rule does make that pretty lethal, since 20 points of damage on a crit will kill an average character no matter the level. If you wanted to make it less lethal, you could have sneak attack just do +1 damage or +1d3 or something. Or just realize that Bounty Hunters are very lethal, and if they get a sneak attack off somebody is probably dying. It is worth noting that in Star Wars, while heroes are larger than life, the movies have proven that everybody can get killed. Jedi Masters die in hails of blaster fire to clone/stormtroopers, the Emperor/Sidious dies effectively of falling damage, Force Lightning kills Vader, critical hits end a lot of lightsaber duels, like Darth Maul getting cut in two with one good critical hit.

You might allow an optional rule that if a character would be killed outright on a critical hit, they can spend a Force point to be reduced to 0 wound but conscious and suffer a permanent injury (like in the movies, if Jedi with their bonus lightsaber dice were landing critical hits, they'd be killing, not wounding, in one hit). Severed arm, lost an eye, damage internal organs. The character will need immediate medical care and cybernetic help, and is certainly out of the fight (and at their opponents mercy, or lack thereov), but it's not all over. In fact, I like the idea now that I think of it, it really reflects the movies well (Qui Gon did that, but didn't get medical help in time, while Maul was out of FP you could say).

Roll the dice and apply damage to VP normally. When the character is out of WPs, apply remaining damage/3 (round up) to WPs. In your example, the 5d6 averages 18 points of damage. 5 points drops the target to 0 VPs, leaving 13 pts of damage remaining. Apply 5 points of WP damage. (13/3, up). This guy gets kinda boned by the rounding, but he shouldn't have let himself be sneak-attacked, so he can't whine.

This is the quick way of rolling each sneak attack damage die normally until the target is out of VPs and then applying 1 point of damage for each unused sneak attack die.

The original SW had sneak attack damage when it was revised they replaced it with an ability that allowed you to add +X to either attack or damage rolled. The +X was just a number starting at 1 and going up by one as Sneak Attack would have progressed. I forget when it could be used, or how many times, but you might want to do the same thing if you introduce VP/WP to D&D.

The original SW had sneak attack damage when it was revised they replaced it with an ability that allowed you to add +X to either attack or damage rolled.

Click to expand...

As wingsandsword mentioned, the Bounty Hunter still gets sneak attack damage.

Roll the dice and apply damage to VP normally. When the character is out of WPs, apply remaining damage/3 (round up) to WPs. In your example, the 5d6 averages 18 points of damage. 5 points drops the target to 0 VPs, leaving 13 pts of damage remaining. Apply 5 points of WP damage. (13/3, up). This guy gets kinda boned by the rounding, but he shouldn't have let himself be sneak-attacked, so he can't whine.

This is the quick way of rolling each sneak attack damage die normally until the target is out of VPs and then applying 1 point of damage for each unused sneak attack die.

Click to expand...

I like both of these ideas (and why shouldn't I? They are from Rodrigo!).

Just for reference, this system will be using Grim Tales at its core. Therefore, the sneak attack ability will be more difficult to obtain. The earliest you can get any sneak attack damage is 5th level and there are some req's that must be met first. You can get additional dice as a rogue does but you'll have to spend most of your talent slots to do so - not something most characters will do. And even if you did that, your character won't be as strong a combatant as a rogue of equal level.

So generally, characters (or villains) with sneak attack dice will be few and far between, and those that do have it probably won't have any more than 3d6 worth of dice, perhaps with master assassins having as much as 5d6 or 6d6, but that's an extreme case.

So given that those with sneak attack dice will be much less frequent than "normal" D&D, I'm trying to decide what system doesn't make sneak attack an instant kill but also doesn't nerf it to the point that no one would ever want it.

Whenever I do WP/VP systems, I don't have crits go straight to WP. WP damage should only happen when the character's VP is out, or when they're caught by surprise or otherwise can't avoid the damage.

Whenever I do WP/VP systems, I don't have crits go straight to WP. WP damage should only happen when the character's VP is out, or when they're caught by surprise or otherwise can't avoid the damage.

Click to expand...

Bah!! Not gritty enough! Need more grit!

But seriously, if you do that, why use the VP/WP system at all? Might as well stick to normal hp's. The whole point of using the VP/WP system is that regardless of your level of amount of VP's you have, you still have a chance of taking a serious and potentially fatal wound at any time.

I agree. The VP/WP system is great for Star Wars because it captures the action from the movies pretty well. An example from the movies of a critical hit was in "Return of the Jedi" when Leia, in the midst of all the action, suddenly gets shot with a blaster bolt in the arm, even though she clearly wasn't worn out. However, in "The Empire Strikes Back", Luke gets beaten back by Darth Vader to a point where he's so worn out that he's basically helpless. That's a case in which his VP would have run out.

I like a WP system because you can have enduring injuries that need a while to heal, and because it gives a reason for falling to be bad -- you take WP damage instead of HP. It also lets NPCs take debilitating damage without killing them or leaving them bleeding to death.

I guess I like the idea of being able to model actual injuries that affect you, without having the randomness that the SW VP/WP system has.

I've always ruled that a critical hit with bonus damage dice deals the weapon's normal damage to wound points and the bonus dice to vitality points. That way, a high-level hero can still survive, assuming their vitality points still remain. If not, tough luck. You take 25 damage from a shot to the heart and drop dead

In grittier games, I've allowed non-crit sneak attacks to deal one bonus sneak attack die directly to wound points, and the rest to vitality points as normal. However, this creates an "easy way out" for characters who want to deal wound damage more easily, so it's a lot more convenient for abuse (even if it is a bit more realistic). It also reintroduces fear of poison, since a good assassin can get a nice black lotus extract (or non-D&D equivalent) shot in and kill a character that way.

How many more threads like this until we convince everyone, GlassJaw? VP/WP rocks and we shall continue to shamelessly promote it until they all agree!