What stats control

I sort of hijacked the idea from another thread.

This thread is going to be about:

Variants on what people think the stats can control, for instance it was mentioned that wisdom should control the reflex save.

Here are some of my ideas that I have never used:
Fortitude save is class bonus + Str Mod + Con Mod
Reflex save is class bonus + Dex Mod + Int Mod
Will save is class bonus + Wis Mod + Cha Mod

Makes every save have two stats hopefully limiting the dump stat phenomenon. If you figure the average stat in your game is a 12 then it might be better to use a base of 8 rather than 5. Or use the following:

Divine casters spell DC is 10 + Wis Mod + Cha Mod + spell level
Arcane casters spell DC is 10 + Int Mod + Wis Mod + spell level
Psionic/Innate casters spell DC is 10 + Cha + Int Mod + spell level

Everyones saves would be higher and everyones DC's would be higher too. If you just wanted to use the caster DC's split into two stats and not the two stats for saves then have the base DC's start at 5 rather than 10.

Any thought? Any other variant ideas on stats?

Sadrik

I don't really agree with this. Seems like adding another level of complexity for something that's a stretch to believe (for me anyway )

I once watched a train-car pulling competition between three groups: a college football team, female weightlifters, and male weight lifters. They had to move the car X distance. First across the line won.

Competition ended with the football team in the lead, female weight-lifters second, and male weightlifters dead last. To me, high str doesn't equal high endurance.

Same with the Ref save: those with the faster reflexs are more physical then mental. Even the cerebral fighters worked the body first to gain timing. Strategy came after the basics were automatic.

As for Will: I point to corrupt political bodies. Lots of Cha, low Wis.


Just my views. YMMV

I am going to attempt to destroy your arguments...

I once watched a train-car pulling competition between three groups: a college football team, female weightlifters, and male weight lifters. They had to move the car X distance. First across the line won.

Competition ended with the football team in the lead, female weight-lifters second, and male weightlifters dead last. To me, high str doesn't equal high endurance.

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Well here is where this argument falls apart: Fortitude has nothing to do with endurance! It is the ability to resist effects such as poison, disease, form altering magics and death magics. Now how could strength be important to that? Well, you are more dense, you are likely larger do to your strength.

Same with the Ref save: those with the faster reflexs are more physical then mental. Even the cerebral fighters worked the body first to gain timing. Strategy came after the basics were automatic.

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Well, the ability to think fast is tantamount to the ability of quickness. For instance, basketball players who dont have the mental game are not as good or as quick as those who are quick of wit and thought. Also, Reflexes are not just a matter of reacting, it is a matter of reacting well. An example, Hum Dumb the fighter is fast, likely the most dexterous fighter ever. One problem, he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He is out one day in a sparse forest. A wizard flys by and fireballs him, in a split second he jumps to dodge the blast very quickly. Only problem was since he is not very bright he dodged behind a bush instead of the solid oak tree, he failed his save and took full damage. Ok, so a smart person instinctively knows more about where they should dodge.

As for Will: I point to corrupt political bodies. Lots of Cha, low Wis.

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Oh, this one is easy. I assume you agree that wisdom is aplicable. Force of personality or charisma is also. Force of personality in my view is the ability to attach yourself to a view and argue its points without concedeing its point, even if only a minor point. Oh, and to do it with style so as to leave the opposed convinced and not bitter. Is it easier or harder to convince a politician who is rooted in their beliefs to switch their veiws to an opposing side? Or is it easier to have someone who does not have a strong force of personality to switch sides on an argument? So, when a Dominate Person spell is cast and they get a save to break it by them being forced to do something contrary to their views. The person with higher charisma would have a better chance to break it than someone with low charisma.

Any other stat ideas, I have some more, I'll post them later I suppose...

Sadrik

why do all the saves start at base 5?

Ha good point. I crossed wires, those should be for the base DC's and not the save bonuses... I think I will go back and edit the post.

Sadrik

The characters wont need two stats to make the saves good. They'll need one, the other is just a bonus. Unless you make it an average, or lessen the class bonus, it might just work....

I'm not a big fan of the idea, but it's definatly unique.

well atm its class bonus + con etc for fortitude.
and your gonna do class bonus + con + str so your adding an ability here.

dc = 10 + int (wiz)
and your making it
dc = 5 + int + wis

And with those relatively low stats.. with an average of 12 (+1)... so

Saves get +1 higher at level 1 (cause of the ekstra Score count from strenght)
and saves at level 1 gets 4 lower than the normal (a+10=a+b+5 <=> 10=5+1... 1+-6 = 4 less.)

So you're trying to crap up the system and balance. Now the interresting Question comes..
What to do in a high powered campaign at high level?
.....

Anyway, add'ing another score to one thing, while doing it to the other while reduce it... is making things off balance

It mgiht work if its Dc = 10 + int + wis
and Save = Class bonus + Str + Con

That way, u only added a score to each without changing the balance
But it's jsut an unnessesary way to complite this already way too complicated game..

Sure it mgiht work in theory if your use laptop's with preprogrammed Char sheets calculating everything by itself...

But in Practic it just dont cut it

Sadrik said:

Any other variant ideas on stats?

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I think Charisma and Wisdom should govern what Intelligence currently governs. This is sufficiently different than what you are talking about that I think I will start a new thread....

Back to your idea.

If spellcaster DCs are based on two ability scores, the DCs would probably rise in high point buy games, but will fall or stay the same in low point buy games. But if characters' saves are based on two ability scores, these will also improve in high point buy games and will fall or stay the same in low point buy games. The two effects should cancel out. So you don't need to change the base number in the formula for spell DCs.

One effect which is probably desirable is that this will favor low level spellcasters over high level spellcasters.

A low level spellcaster is one who is built to thrive around levels 5-8. A wizard with a starting 16 Intelligence and 14 Wisdom, say (16 points in point buy), will have bonus spells for level 4 spells at 8th level (and 18 intelligence), and will have spell DCs of 16 + spell level (10 base + 4 int bonus + 2 wis bonus).

A high level spellcater is one who is built to thrive at high levels. A wizard with an 18 starting Intelligence and an 8 Wisdom (16 points in point buy) will get the high level spells and bonus spells easily, but the save DCs will be lower. At 8th level (and 20 intelligence) he will have spell DCs of 14 + spell level.

I think this is a good thing!

good idea? it limits campaigns ... what happend to the from level 1 to level 50 Idea?
instead lets make new chars every 3 levels... (useless)

Please don't call something "useless" without explaining yourself fully. You will make people angry for no good purpose.

In this system a high level wizard will have more bonus spells but slightly lower spell DCs. How does that make anything useless?