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Review of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

RyanD

Adventurer
Following the thread of two weeks ago regarding "rules lite" RPGs, where the topic of the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay game was discussed, I had a chance to examine the product in detail and write my review, which appears at www.gamingreport.com.

I suspect that many of you will find my thoughts interesting wrt how closely WFRP and D20 are related.

Ryan
 

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Turjan

Explorer
Thanks for the reviews :). Here are the direct links to the Core Rulebook and to the Bestiary.

I agree that WFRP2 is relatively similar to d20. I don't see why it is special in this regard, though. The same may be said, to different extents, of Runequest/BRP, HARP, C&C or Palladium Fantasy. They have all the same roots, and the differences lie in the details. And how exactly does this fit in the rules light vs. rules heavy discussion?

One point where I found it a bit hard to understand where the special case can be made relates to the following:


"It will also be very hard for a GM to scale a challenge for a group of characters who are widely dissimilar: One character may have focused all XP expenditures on min-maxing combat ability, while another may have dabbled in a wide range of character options - leaving him weak and defenseless vs. an opponent the first character would mow down without much effort.

WFRP is a game that will benefit greatly from integrated parties who are created together, adventure together, and who work to reinforce each other's weaknesses. It will not be a good game for people who want an ad hoc quickie one-shot adventure with a "bring your own PC" approach."



Do you think it's easier if you tell a d20 group "You can make whatever character you want", and they show up with a fighter, a ranger, a wizard and a monk for the Tomb of Horrors? It's also tough in d20 games if certain roles, like rogue and cleric, are not filled in. That's why we see variants like Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, I suppose.
 

RyanD

Adventurer
They have all the same roots, and the differences lie in the details.

Actually, I'd say that while those game may share the same conceptual framework none of them are as close to any version of D&D as WFRP is to D&D3e. Those other games are in the same family tree as D&D. D&D and WFRP are on the same branch.

Do you think it's easier if you tell a d20 group "You can make whatever character you want", and they show up with a fighter, a ranger, a wizard and a monk for the Tomb of Horrors?

I think that most 15th level PCs in D&D, unless radically de-optimized on purpose, can face and overcome roughly the same level of challenges.

Due to the extremely flexible system in WFRP, the same could not be said for a group of PCs who were given nothing but a total XP to create a build with.
 

scourger

Explorer
Thanks for the good review. I just bought this book today as a gift for a friend who has been out of our gaming group for the past year. I think he needs a fresh start, and WFRP may be it. D&D has too much baggage for him & others to really be a good option at present. I think he would be happier if he ran WFRP with only him knowing the rules, especially for magic, so that the game could go on without all the fussiness of analyzing everything to death with the "established" rules that have been through several iterations and differ just slightly enough with each new version to ruffle someone's feathers.

Okay, kinda ranty; but thanks for the review. It would be great if if were posted here or rpg.net so it could be easily found by future gamers.
 

Turjan

Explorer
RyanD said:
Actually, I'd say that while those game may share the same conceptual framework none of them are as close to any version of D&D as WFRP is to D&D3e. Those other games are in the same family tree as D&D. D&D and WFRP are on the same branch.
Let's see, how the new Runequest next year will look like. I have the feeling, the d100 will just stay "because it's Runequest", whereas other elements will look, let's say, familar :D. Not too surprising, though, given some of the roots of d20.

Anyway, I think the big difference of WFRP2 and d20 lies, as you also said in your review, in the character generation and the power curve. This implies that even a 'first level' character can kill a 'high level' one, unlike in D&D.

I think that most 15th level PCs in D&D, unless radically de-optimized on purpose, can face and overcome roughly the same level of challenges.

Due to the extremely flexible system in WFRP, the same could not be said for a group of PCs who were given nothing but a total XP to create a build with.
As I already said, I don't see the absolute differences between characters in WFRP2 as so high. It's a few percent up here and a few down there.

As far as the de facto equivalence of same level d20 characters goes, I think that's slightly exaggerated. I can see a party of 4 clerics doing fine. I'm not sure whether a party of 4 wizards can do fine. I'm pretty sure that a party of 4 bards won't do fine, although they are presumably suited for everything.
 

tarchon

First Post
The core game is set in "the Empire" (Germany), and it is bordered to the east by Russian and Nodic derivatives, and to the west by Bretonnia (Norman France).
I'm 99.9% sure that Bretonnia is Breton France.
 

John Q. Mayhem

Explorer
Well, I disagree with you on the Bestiary (except that the price is too high). It was immensely fun to read, and if I ever get to GM WFRP I'm sure I'll get a lot of mileage out of it.

Other than that, nice review.

EDIT: Said nice, meant interesting.
 
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tarchon

First Post
Eh, not a very good review. This whole D20 derivative aspect is wrong (not too hard to see where that comes from though) and not especially helpful. WFRP obviously derived a lot from the original D&D, but its inheritance from 3E is paltry, no more than the level of derivation than many have seen in 3E from the 1st ed WFRP.

In the setting description, it also seems to have completely sailed over the author's head that "the Empire" is a reflection of the Holy Roman Empire, not "Germany."

The example demonstrating how the mechanics of the system are "identical" to D20's is highly questionable:

Example:
A WFRP character who wanted to try and hear a noise would roll 2d10, and try to roll under their relevant stat percentile value. A D20 character who wanted to attempt this task would roll 1d20 and add a bonus vs. a DC of 20. Assume the stat in question was 35% and no external modifiers apply. In WFRP a 2d10 roll of 34-01 would succeed. In D20, a 1d20 roll with a +7 modifier (35% divided by 5) vs. a DC of 20 would succeed on a roll of 20-13. The results are mechanically identical.

Yeah, IF the stat in question is 35%, then that's true, but do I have to point out the obvious, that in a percentile system, that only happens a fifth of the time? These are not mathematically identical mechanics.
The example is also mistaken, in that WFRP skill tests don't always go off the raw ability stat - you do often add in a skill stat, in the above case Perception.
If the author had understood the system better, the author would also have realized that one of the key differences between D20 and WFRP mechanics is the higher granularity and more limited dynamic range of WFRP stats. In d20, there's no limit to how high your skill check can get - in WFRP, a 35% Int stat (which is VERY good) isn't ever going to get higher than 70 (fully advanced Wizard Lord). You could, with a great deal of effort, take the Perception skill 3 times to get that up to 100, and with the Excellent Hearing talent you could get to 120, which still gives you a 10% chance to fail on a Very Hard test. Almost no Warhammer character will ever even come close to that level.
Additionally, what happens in practice with the percentile stat is that it usually creates at least a tiny little gap between the character and perfection, or between the character and absolute incompetence. Exactly because the bonuses, threshholds, and penalties are all on 5% intervals (for the most part, only the initial base abilities use the 1% steps), it very commonly ends up that the character will try something with a 97% chance of doing it (or a 7% chance). In D20, there's much more of an all-or-nothing effect, just because it doesn't have that little bit of odd slop in the WFRP percentiles. Of course, you wouldn't tend to appreciate this without playing the game for a while, but then if you haven't played the game, why are you writing a review of it?

WFRP does not have stand-alone saving throws. Instead, effects that in D20 would require a save are explicitly bound to ability score checks. Bonuses or penalties may be applied by the effect or the GM depending on circumstances. This is similar to D20's system for ability-score linked saving throws.

This also displays the author's bias. WFRP does not have saving throws at all. Period. It is not a concept in the game, and yet he imposes the concept on the system merely to show us that if one could identify a saving throw equivalent it would be similar to the D20 system. So... the idea is that rolls based on abilities, potentially with GM imposed bonuses and penalties, is a similarity to D20. I guess pretty much all gaming systems are basically just D20 with cosmetic alterations, when you get right down to it.

The overall impression I get from this review is that it's mostly Ryan Dancey's soapbox to convince us that D20 is the font of all gaming. It's somewhat interesting just to see what a D20 designer thinks of game design, but on the subject of WFRP, it's neither especially insightful nor accurate.

**OOO
 
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