What's the secret behind D&D's ability to sustain long term play?

There was this thread over on rpg.net started by Ian Noble

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=218537&page=1&pp=10


Here's what I said about the topic over on rpg.net

"I think it's part leveling, part the complexity of the rules. I've had players really get into their character because of the crunch. It's a customizable thing. I've felt the same way with WoW, being able to plan out your character attaches you to him/her. True 20 holds that kind of hold, but not as much as d20. Savage worlds while a good system was rejected by my group. "Leveling" (yes I know there is no levels) was so anti-climatic. My group was also turned off by how simple the characters creation process was. They claimed that the characters where 2-D. I think that the classes have something to do with it as well. Classes gives a sense of their role for the group. This sense of purpose gives way to being attached to their character

It seems that the majority of complaints against d20 comes from the DMs not the players. d20 is a players game"


Tell me what you think? Am I right? Wrong?

I think successful long term play is more the result of quality DMing than any systemic characteristics. I've played in very successful long term Shadowrun games as well as long term D&D games. What kept us going? Interesting plot lines and good DMing. Character advancement, for me at least, played little significance in my desire to continue playing in those campaigns.

Some people disliked it but I agreed with Mike Mearls & Ryan Dancy as to their answer to this.

"A party of adventurers assemble to seek fame and fortune. They leave civilization for a location of extreme danger. They fight monsters and overcome obstacles and acquire new abilities and items of power. Afterwards they return to civilization and sell the phat loot. Next week, they do it all over again."

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Everyone's campaign is a variation on this theme, whether it's the most important theme or not. This theme occurs in 90% of the campaigns out there. And D&D does it better than everyone else. In 25 years of gaming, I've never been in someone's D&D game where this was NOT a theme.

Now, the whole "network externalities" bit also plays into this, but by itself, inertia does not make a success forever. But D&D, played out, provides the above, over and over again, making it a repeat success.

AIM-54 said:

I think successful long term play is more the result of quality DMing than any systemic characteristics. I've played in very successful long term Shadowrun games as well as long term D&D games. What kept us going? Interesting plot lines and good DMing. Character advancement, for me at least, played little significance in my desire to continue playing in those campaigns.

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Here's the big question: Why did you, and so many of us, keep going back to D&D? If you can have the same thing (Interesting plot lines and good GM'ing) with Shadowrun, or Savage Worlds, or Vampire, why does D&D never fall by the wayside for good?

Someone once referred to D&D as the Rasputin of gaming, and it's pretty apt: It mesmerizes us, draws us back to pick it up, and it would take a heck of a lot to kill it.

...propaganda deleted...end program.

It's not the game. It's the dm!
I'm not a big Cyberpunk fan, but there is a GM in North Carolina that if given the chance I would pay to fly down to one of his sessions. He's that good! By the way I live in michigan.
I've run a variety of games and it's the ones I run well that my players keep wanting to play. There are games that have dwindled in interest, actually there have been many. However I pride myself on the fact that if I say I'm running DnD or Call of Cthulhu, my players actually get excited to play. They're starting to enjoy the thought of a good All Flesh Must Be Eaten game as well.

I think you are on to something, Gundark. The complexity of the rules and the levelling are part of the secret. But I think the details are just as important. The treasures you can find; bracers of armor, the deck of many things, dragon lances, and vorpal swords are part of the appeal. The monsters you hunt down or get slain by; mind flayers, dragons, beholder, just to name a few. Also the controversy is important. I know I love to discuss the true essence of rangers or the paladin's code.

When I make a new character I don't just plot future prestige classes and feat trees I also imagine which magic items I hope I will find. "Hey, this wizard will look great in a cloak of eyes!".

Its all about the players and the DM. THe players have to make characters that they want to play for the long term. THe DM has to set up a campaign that works for the long term. THe game system is of less importance. Paranoia can be run as a campaign with the right people and DM.

One of the reasons D&D sustains long-term play is that 1st-level PCs are not fully-realised characters in the literary sense, but rather take shape during gameplay in an organic fashion. Simply put, they become more interesting and complex the more you play them. Most low-level, high-concept PCs in my games have quickly become 2-D charicatures and been abandoned or revamped by their players, whereas 1st-level PCs with a simple backstory and motivation give players the pleasure of developing their quirks, goals, and other characteristics on the fly, logically, in response to in-game events. This element of D&D is far more appealing to me than the GURPS approach, where you start the game knowing that your character is a ninja with an aversion to carrots and has an influential contact in the postal service.

Crothian said:

Its all about the players and the DM. THe players have to make characters that they want to play for the long term. THe DM has to set up a campaign that works for the long term. THe game system is of less importance. Paranoia can be run as a campaign with the right people and DM.

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And D&D supports DMs better than any other game out there, where it seems like it's pulling teeth to get anything published adventures for any other games (since they don't sell, apparently), while for D&D we get a Dungeon subscription (enough adventuring to get your group from 1st to 20th) for the cost of a source book.