Armor Specialist PrC

Luthien Greyspear

First Post
I would appreciate any feedback on this class, particularly what to do with the 7th and 10th levels. I'd also like some ideas for a good name (obviously). Don't worry about flavor or campaign specific details, as I intended the class to be fairly generic and easily portable. Obviously, it works best in a campaign that has exotic armors, but I think the classes' other abilities make it useful nonetheless.

Adamantine Warden

Some fighters live to hit the opponent as hard as possible, to cause as much damage as they can before they fall. Other warriors seek to become tacticians and strategists, leading men or even armies to victory. Many, however, just want to live to the next day with all of their limbs and organs intact. They seek to maximize their personal defenses, denying their enemies the chance of a lucky shot. Some of these warriors learn very advanced techniques to get the most out of their armor. They are called Adamantine Wardens, and are considered by some warriors to be almost unkillable.

This is an exaggeration, of course. The Adamantine Warden doesn't seek to be unkillable, but rather unhittable. By surrounding themselves in a cocoon of hide, leather, or steel, and then making that cocoon move and twist in ways that most fighters never imagine, they are able to deflect almost any blow. The most skilled of these warriors even learn to deny skilled rogues the chance to slip a blade into their ribs. Eventually, they are able to take all they've learned about defense to the ultimate level: by denying their enemies the use of their weapons.

Adamantine Wardens are most commonly found in those cultures that have an extensive history of ironmongery and metallurgy. Dwarves are particularly likely to follow this path, as they have a strong tradition of innovation in the realm of armoury. Cultures that ascribe ritual meaning to their armors (such as the Samurai of feudal Japan) might also follow this class, as it implies a devotion to the armor beyond that of a normal soldier.

Obviously, this class is strongly geared towards fighters, who can make the requisites by 5th level without any difficulty. Clerics, paladins, and psychic warriors can also get good use out of this class, provided that they are willing to stunt their magical progression for the chance at a higher AC. Barbarians, druids, and rangers might benefit from a few levels in this class, both for the AC bonuses and for the increased mobility from Second Skin. Most other classes rely too little on armor for defense to make much use of this class.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements:
To qualify as an Adamantine Warden, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Base Fort Save: +5
Feats: Armor Proficiency (heavy), Armor Proficiency (medium), Armor Proficiency (light), Shield Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any one-handed weapon), Endurance
Skills: Craft (armorer) 8

Class Skills:
The Adamantine Warden's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier

Class Features:
The following are class features of the Adamantine Wardenprestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adamantine Wardens gain no extra proficiencies except through their Armor Versatility ability.

Armor Versatility (Ex): At 1st level, the Adamantine Warden gains an instinctual understanding of armor, enabling him to wear increasingly more complicated armors. He is considered to be fully proficient in any armor or shield (exotic or otherwise) that has a base armor bonus less than or equal to his class level. In order to gain this benefit, he must wear the armor for an entire day, moving around in it and practicing his weapon attacks.

Second Skin (Ex): Also at 1st level, the character has become so familiar with the wearing of armor at almost all times that he reduces the Armor Check penalty of any armor he wears by one (to a minimum of zero). This is cumulative with the reduction gained from masterwork armor, but not from any feats or class abilities that may provide a similar reduction.

Master of Armor (Ex): At 2nd level, Adamantine Warden becomes able to maximize the use of his armor, giving him a better defense than other warriors. When gaining this ability, the character chooses one type of armor (chain shirt, full plate, etc.) in which he is proficient. While wearing this type of armor, the character gains a dodge bonus equal to his Wisdom bonus. This bonus may not exceed the character's level in this class.
Every three levels past 2nd (5th, 8th), the character may choose an additional armor type to receive this dodge bonus.

Bonus Feats: The Adamantine Warden gains bonus feats at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels. He must choose from the following list: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Diehard, Dodge, Exotic Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Optimization (Greater Heavy Armor Optimization), Great Fortitude, Improved Buckler Defense, Improved Shield Bash (Shield Charge, Shield Slam), Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness.

Tempered Steel (Ex): The Adamantine Warden adds his class level to the hardness of all of his armor and weapons while he is using them. This ability is negated if the Adamantine Warden is unaware of a threat to his equipment, as it represents a conscious attempt to preserve his gear. The Adamantine Warden also adds his Wisdom bonus to all of his equipment saves if they are targeted (or if the Adamantine Warden rolls a 1 versus a damaging spell).

Skin of Iron (Ex): By 7th level, the Adamantine Warden has become so familiar with all the vulnerable spots on his armor he can twist his body away from what would be a crippling blow. He gains the Light Fortification enhancement on any armor type that he has chosen for the Master of Armor ability, which provides a 25% chance to avoid any extra damage from a successful critical hit or sneak attack.

Bastion of Defense (Ex): At tenth level, the Adamantine Warden learns to use his armor as a weapon against his enemies' sunder attempts. The Adamantine Warden (who must be wearing a suit of armor that he has mastered) must use an action (either a held action or the attack of opportunity that a normal sunder attempt provokes), and must be aware of the incoming sunder attack. The opponent makes his attack as normal, and both the Adamantine Warden's weapon or shield AND the attacker's weapon take damage. The Adamantine Warden applies the normal bonus for Tempered Steel to his equipment, as detailed in that ability.

Level BAB Fort Reflex Will
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Armor Versatility, Second Skin
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Master of Armor
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Bonus Feat
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Tempered Steel
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Master of Armor
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Skin of Iron
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Master of Armor
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Bonus Feat
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Bastion of Defense
 
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well I've never seen exotic armour types before so I won't comment on that...
instead I'll just tell you the ac bonus needs to be capped at class level. More than that I'm not really sure about the oddities of how the ac increases with several different stats.

As for a name Steelborn, Turtlewarrior, SecondSkin
 

Sledge said:
well I've never seen exotic armour types before so I won't comment on that...
instead I'll just tell you the ac bonus needs to be capped at class level. More than that I'm not really sure about the oddities of how the ac increases with several different stats.

As for a name Steelborn, Turtlewarrior, SecondSkin

Exotic armors are complicated designs that require a feat to use effectively. Each armor requires its own feat, making the class ability a defining point for the class. Luckily, you can only wear one suit and wear one shield at any one time. Several exotic armors are introduced in Races of Stone:
Gnomish twist cloth, mammoth leather (light armors)
Interlocking scale, tumbler's breastplate (medium)
Interlocking plate, battle plate, mountain plate (heavy)
Gnome battle cloak, extreme shields, gauntlet shield, rider's shield (shields)

There are also some exotic armors in Arcana Unearthed:
Devanian chain shirt (light)
Devanian breastplate, articulated plate jack (medium)
Devanian plate, articulated plate, Devanian articulated plate, superior articulated plate, "The Definitive Harness" (heavy)

Some of the AU armors are probably identical statistically to some of the Stone armors; I haven't sat down to really compare them.
 

Some Considerations ...

cool PrC concept, i like the idea of a true tank in D&D (although being the stickler i am, i wouldnt allow this PrC IMC, i like it all the same) anyways, heres a few points i have.

the Master of Armour ability seems horribly misanthropic. i dont believe there is another special ability from a PrC that needs 3 different ability scores to use. you will get the clerics in your world taking this PrC once they have enough spells just to get the Wis bonus to AC while still wearing armours. its like a monk on steroids! also, you will get wizard/fighters/spellswords taking levels in this to get the int bonus and no arcane spellfailure, and armour special abilities to boot! i think you need to re-consider this ability majorly.

the weapon focus (any 1-H weapon) is inappropriate. a fighter will be able to get into this class all the same, and would have the feat anyways (so long as he is a smart fighter :P). as for those who would say (oh, well any class could potentially give up the weapon focus feat, take into consideration that only the fighter is prof. in ALL shields. so someone who has 0 levels in fighter is now using up two feats to get into this class, adn since the base fort save sets upthis class for level 8 fighters, thast 2/3 feats by that level. That said, this is definitivly a fighter clas-oriented PrC, maybe one of the most restricting (but well made ones) in a while.

On top of that, your wording is wrong for the armour profs in the requirements (all amrous would include all exotic armours, which is a part of your Armour versitility Ability); re-word so that it says Armour Prof: Light, Medium, Heavy. clarification is key here.

Armor Versatility is a well-flavoured ability, but not well-balanced. the character has probably already equipped himself with his optimal armour, and doesnt really need this ability. my suggestion: at every odd level, you gain prof. in any exotic armor or shield that has a base armor bonus less than or equal to his RAG class level. In order to gain this benefit, he must wear the armor for an entire day, moving around in it and practicing his weapon attacks, etc.

Tempered Steel is an awesome ability, and should stay at 4th level. it encourages actually putting levels into this PrC, adn is usful in ertain types of games.

your skill list is not very appropriate. spot/listen? those are scouting skills, and you are not a scout-ie character. you are clunking around like a mini-tank. just use the fighters skill selections.

also, unless you are planning to take this PrC into epic levels, id say shrink him down to a 5 level PrC, and figure out a sweet ability for 5th level. that would add to the overall balance of the class, and wouldnt stress you out too much about all those other levels. Also, your initial PrC seems a bit .... underpowered. a definite scapegoat to min-maxers (esp clerics or wiz/fighter/spellswords as mentioned before). I can for sure help you with this, if you decide to do it that way. personally, i think this is a PrC with awesome flavour > it just needs some guidance. till next time.
 

Nyaricus said:
cool PrC concept, i like the idea of a true tank in D&D (although being the stickler i am, i wouldnt allow this PrC IMC, i like it all the same) anyways, heres a few points i have.

the Master of Armour ability seems horribly misanthropic. i dont believe there is another special ability from a PrC that needs 3 different ability scores to use. you will get the clerics in your world taking this PrC once they have enough spells just to get the Wis bonus to AC while still wearing armours. its like a monk on steroids! also, you will get wizard/fighters/spellswords taking levels in this to get the int bonus and no arcane spellfailure, and armour special abilities to boot! i think you need to re-consider this ability majorly.

The use of varied statistics is intentional. It allows characters with a wider range of stats and needs to make use of the class, while leaving the highest bonuses to the characters most likely to take the class in the first place. Got a swashbuckler-esque character, long on Smarts, but not inclined to wear the heavier armors? Two levels in this class gives them a few extra points of AC, plus some expanded variety in working gear. Your aforementioned wizard/fighter/spellsword? If he really wants to give up spell progression for AC, fine. Reduced ASF chances really aren't an issue, as the few exotic light armors have percentages right in line with the existing PHB armors. Clerics may well want to invest in this class, but keep in mind that the best bonuses from this class come at the expense of 8-10 levels of spellcasting, plus possibly another spellcasting level from taking a level of fighter. This class is supposed to be all about AC, nothing less. Paladins fighting dragons would love it, and that's how it should be.

Nyaricus said:
The weapon focus (any 1-H weapon) is inappropriate. a fighter will be able to get into this class all the same, and would have the feat anyways (so long as he is a smart fighter :P). as for those who would say (oh, well any class could potentially give up the weapon focus feat, take into consideration that only the fighter is prof. in ALL shields. so someone who has 0 levels in fighter is now using up two feats to get into this class, adn since the base fort save sets upthis class for level 8 fighters, thast 2/3 feats by that level. That said, this is definitivly a fighter clas-oriented PrC, maybe one of the most restricting (but well made ones) in a while.

The weapon focus in a 1-H weapon represents a dedication to a sword-and-board type of combat, which means more defense. As there is no 3.5 equivalent to "Shield Focus", Weapon Focus in a weapon that can be used with a shield seemed to be the closest thing. And not every fighter will have WF in a one-handed weapon. Dedicated Power Attackers will go with the 2-H route, believing in the "best offense" philosophy. This class, again, is all about true defense.

BTW, the Fort save requirement only requires a 6th-level fighter (or any other class with a good Fort save). Non-fighter/cleric types would have to be at least 15th level to get that kind of save. Splashing in just two levels of one of the good Fort classes knocks off 9 levels of the primary class levels (so a fighter 2/wizard 6 could make the class).

Nyaricus said:
On top of that, your wording is wrong for the armour profs in the requirements (all amrous would include all exotic armours, which is a part of your Armour versitility Ability); re-word so that it says Armour Prof: Light, Medium, Heavy. clarification is key here.

Good point. I'll edit the original to reflect that. Actually, I can pare the requirements down to Armor Proficiency (Heavy) and Tower Shield Proficiency, as those feats automatically require Light and Medium Armor and regular Shields.

Nyaricus said:
Armor Versatility is a well-flavoured ability, but not well-balanced. the character has probably already equipped himself with his optimal armour, and doesnt really need this ability. my suggestion: at every odd level, you gain prof. in any exotic armor or shield that has a base armor bonus less than or equal to his RAG class level. In order to gain this benefit, he must wear the armor for an entire day, moving around in it and practicing his weapon attacks, etc.

I know it's a little weird, but I envisioned a character that could wear ANYTHING, and move in it like it was a second skin. Armor Proficiency feats are less useful, overall, than Martial weapon feats, IMHO. How often does a character's armor turn the tide in a fight, as opposed to his weapon? I wanted the character to not even have to worry about selecting specific armors; he would eventually be equally comfortable in any sort of armor, as long as he had a little time to work out all the kinks.

This also gives the character an unusual advantage in subterfuge, as he is able to adapt to any culture's armor with ease. If he's attempting to impersonate, say, a samurai-type character, with very distinctive (and, one presumes, hard to don) armor, he could conceivably gain some sort of circumstance bonus to Disguise or Bluff checks while in the armor.

Nyaricus said:
Tempered Steel is an awesome ability, and should stay at 4th level. it encourages actually putting levels into this PrC, adn is usful in ertain types of games.

Yeah, I had long wanted to see an anti-Sunder kind of ability, and it seemed to fit right in line with this ultra-defensive character.

Nyaricus said:
your skill list is not very appropriate. spot/listen? those are scouting skills, and you are not a scout-ie character. you are clunking around like a mini-tank. just use the fighters skill selections.

Hmm. Another good point. I'll replace those with Swim, as it has an Armor Check Penalty associated with it, and this class would want to overcome those sorts of penalties.

Actually, an reduction in the Armor Check Penalties might be a good 7th level ability, mightn't it? Something like a 1-point reduction?

Nyaricus said:
Also, unless you are planning to take this PrC into epic levels, id say shrink him down to a 5 level PrC, and figure out a sweet ability for 5th level. that would add to the overall balance of the class, and wouldnt stress you out too much about all those other levels. Also, your initial PrC seems a bit .... underpowered. a definite scapegoat to min-maxers (esp clerics or wiz/fighter/spellswords as mentioned before). I can for sure help you with this, if you decide to do it that way. personally, i think this is a PrC with awesome flavour > it just needs some guidance. till next time.

I'm going to keep it a 10-level class precisely to avoid the "5-level dip". I want to keep the really big bonuses (the Heavy armor bonus, specifically) at the high end, and I want to make them earn it. Let's face it, a cleric with an 18 Wis and a 16 Con would get a +7 to his AC at 8th level, boosted by ANOTHER 4 points with two simple spells. Add in the plethora of stat-boosting permanent magic items, and that's too much of a bonus to give to a 5-level class.

Plus, there's a couple of armors in the books with Armor bonuses of over +10. Epic levels would grant proficiency in those.

Thanks for the input!
 
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Well the last two levels are completely superfluous. Maybe cut it off at level 8.
Again I've got to suggest capping the ac bonus at class level. Otherwise you have a swashbuckler grabbing 2 levels of this class and getting int to damage and ac.
 

Sledge said:
Well the last two levels are completely superfluous. Maybe cut it off at level 8.
Again I've got to suggest capping the ac bonus at class level. Otherwise you have a swashbuckler grabbing 2 levels of this class and getting int to damage and ac.

If you look at the last line of the 'Master of Armor' ability it says: Dodge bonuses gained in this way are limited to a maximum of the character's class level as a RAG. Since the Wis and Int bonuses to AC are considered dodge bonuses, I already had that covered.
 

In case people are interested to see what the class gains (feat-wise) over the ten levels in the class, here's the Exotic Armor types I've found so far. If anyone knows where I can find more armor types, I'd really appreciate the references.

Level Armor types learned
1 Gnome twist cloth (Races of Stone)
2
3
4 Mammoth leather (RoS), interlocking scale (RoS), Devanian chain shirt (AU)
5 Tumbler's breastplate (RoS), Devanian breastplate (AU)
6 Articulated plate jack (AU)
7
8 Interlocking plate (RoS), Devanian plate (AU)
9 Battle plate (RoS)
10 Mountain plate (RoS), articulated plate (AU)

Superior articulated plate and the 'definitive harness', both from AU, would only be leaned in the epic levels of this class, at levels 11 and 12 respectively.
 

Luthien Greyspear said:
The use of varied statistics is intentional. It allows characters with a wider range of stats and needs to make use of the class, while leaving the highest bonuses to the characters most likely to take the class in the first place. Got a swashbuckler-esque character, long on Smarts, but not inclined to wear the heavier armors? Two levels in this class gives them a few extra points of AC, plus some expanded variety in working gear. Your aforementioned wizard/fighter/spellsword? If he really wants to give up spell progression for AC, fine. Reduced ASF chances really aren't an issue, as the few exotic light armors have percentages right in line with the existing PHB armors. Clerics may well want to invest in this class, but keep in mind that the best bonuses from this class come at the expense of 8-10 levels of spellcasting, plus possibly another spellcasting level from taking a level of fighter. This class is supposed to be all about AC, nothing less. Paladins fighting dragons would love it, and that's how it should be.

well, i understadn that you want characters with differnt stats to be able to get in this class, but it should be balanced against itself. what is your resoning behind giving int bonuses to light armours only? are those who wear fullplate stupid or something? this would only encourage swashbuckler-esque types to take a mere two level "dip" in this class (assuming you are not using the swashbuckler class/Duelist PrC class as is, but rather has a finesse-y fighter or paladin). as for my wizard/fighter/spellsword > i just was showing that you could easily exploit this classes abilities. a character (assuming he is the best he can be, or worst case of munchin-dom in this scenario) with the following levels: 3 wiz, 3 fighter 1 spellsword, two RAG, with a chainshirt (not to mention magical ones) and towershield could have at 9th level 28 AC (10, +4 armour, +4 shield, +4 dex, +2 int, +4 mage armour [duh]) and their ASF halved. if they wear leather armour, it is negated, and they still have 26 AC. Also, theyd have a BAB of +6/+1, a casting levet of a 4 wiz, and plenty of HP. that is unbalanced, IMHO.

as for the cleric, yes, this class comes at the expense of 8-10 levels of spells, but why should the cleric get the short end of the stick with regards to Special ability progression when the wiz/fighter/spellword aforementioned gets ALOT of good stuff? lets compare to before. a fighter 1/cleric 3 meets all requirements for this class. skip to level 5, he adds his Wis bonus to AC with medium armours. assuming he is the best he can be, he will have 20 Wis, 16 dex and breastplate armour. AC is 29 (10, +5 armour, +4 shield, +3dex, +5 Wis, +2 shield of faith) theres no chance of spellfailure, more HP than the wiz/fighter/spellsword, you get more abilities with RAG, a few okay cleric spells, and 3 more levels in RAG adds your Con mod to heavy armours, as well as your wis mod. WOW, i'll order three right of those now.

i dont mean to make you pisse off at me, but people will exploit this. finesse fighter/wiz will take a 2 level dip, and warrior-priests will have the aforementioned 5 level dip. this is the fact, and i have outlined it. sorry dude.

as i said before, you need to figure out what kind of bonuses you wish to apply to this class. maybe an un-named bonus to AC (like a monk or dwarven defender) would be a good idea, rather than baseing it off stats. this way, you favour none and embrace all. everyone wants to be a tank at some point.

Luthien Greyspear said:
The weapon focus in a 1-H weapon represents a dedication to a sword-and-board type of combat, which means more defense. As there is no 3.5 equivalent to "Shield Focus", Weapon Focus in a weapon that can be used with a shield seemed to be the closest thing. And not every fighter will have WF in a one-handed weapon. Dedicated Power Attackers will go with the 2-H route, believing in the "best offense" philosophy. This class, again, is all about true defense.

if you want a dedication to sword and shield, just have a special requirement > you must forgo any other style than sword and one-handed weapons. as to your metion of samurais later on, did not the steriotypical samurai go katana/wakizashi or just katana? that kinda invaididates that comment, dont you think?

Luthien Greyspear said:
BTW, the Fort save requirement only requires a 6th-level fighter (or any other class with a good Fort save). Non-fighter/cleric types would have to be at least 15th level to get that kind of save. Splashing in just two levels of one of the good Fort classes knocks off 9 levels of the primary class levels (so a fighter 2/wizard 6 could make the class).

a 1 fighter/3 cleric meets all the requirements. 'nuff said

Luthien Greyspear said:
Good point. I'll edit the original to reflect that. Actually, I can pare the requirements down to Armor Proficiency (Heavy) and Tower Shield Proficiency, as those feats automatically require Light and Medium Armor and regular Shields.

id actually put ALL the requirements in, so as not to confuse people. WotC has that as their standard (and when it is forgotten, people do b*tch about it.

Luthien Greyspear said:
I know it's a little weird, but I envisioned a character that could wear ANYTHING, and move in it like it was a second skin. Armor Proficiency feats are less useful, overall, than Martial weapon feats, IMHO. How often does a character's armor turn the tide in a fight, as opposed to his weapon? I wanted the character to not even have to worry about selecting specific armors; he would eventually be equally comfortable in any sort of armor, as long as he had a little time to work out all the kinks.

armour profs depend on your type of character. you envsion paladins utilizing this class? you have to wait till level 8 to anything to come of that concept (or have a pally that isnt wearing padded armour and has 14 Int). this is why an un-named bonus would best reflect this.

Luthien Greyspear said:
This also gives the character an unusual advantage in subterfuge, as he is able to adapt to any culture's armor with ease. If he's attempting to impersonate, say, a samurai-type character, with very distinctive (and, one presumes, hard to don) armor, he could conceivably gain some sort of circumstance bonus to Disguise or Bluff checks while in the armor.

actually, you can already do that via the PHB rules. when a fighter gains his profs, he gains ALL light, med and heavy armours, incl. ones hes never used/seen. samurai type armour isnt exotic, just read oriental adventures to get the scoop. Just because its from another culture, it doesnt mean the fighter doesnt get profs in it (which is one of my gripes with the system as is > check out my weapon prof thread for more info)

Luthien Greyspear said:
Yeah, I had long wanted to see an anti-Sunder kind of ability, and it seemed to fit right in line with this ultra-defensive character.

as said before, good job on this. i like it

Luthien Greyspear said:
Actually, an reduction in the Armor Check Penalties might be a good 7th level ability, mightn't it? Something like a 1-point reduction?

i like it already! and for swim check, have em add double AC check penalties minus 2. i ike it.

Luthien Greyspear said:
I'm going to keep it a 10-level class precisely to avoid the "5-level dip". I want to keep the really big bonuses (the Heavy armor bonus, specifically) at the high end, and I want to make them earn it. Let's face it, a cleric with an 18 Wis and a 16 Con would get a +7 to his AC at 8th level, boosted by ANOTHER 4 points with two simple spells. Add in the plethora of stat-boosting permanent magic items, and that's too much of a bonus to give to a 5-level class.

again, you have already left yourself venerable to 2 or 5 level dips. i say you need revision to help with this. also, with a 5 level Prc, you would have to re-balance this class to suit it. obviously, one couldn't add in all the great abilities you have created in 5 levels. what you really need is abilities for the later levels that would make characters want to take this class through all 10 levels and posibly even into epic levels. Also, you dont haev any amazing class feature that would make this a good epic level PrC. infact, the bonus feats would be the only thing that would take this PrC into epics levels, but the standard fighter classgets better progression, so PCs are likely to switch back into that class to get feats. if you have an un-named AC bonus, this (along with all the other abilities, minus the Master of Armour ability, adding in some other ones) would make this a viable Eipc Level PrC

Luthien Greyspear said:
Plus, there's a couple of armors in the books with Armor bonuses of over +10. Epic levels would grant proficiency in those

so does one feat for a level one fighter. 'nuff said.

****************************

in conclusion, i think you need to seriously look at what you want to do with this character, adn give us a more refined character concept. maybe some nice descriptive text would help up getthe feel of it better, and even just general ideas (new or your abilities broken down) will help us shape your PrC. cool class though man. i really like it, despite picking it apart so much. Apollogies, i honestly dont mean offense, just getting thru to my points.
 

Thanks for the feedback so far, Nyaricus; I really appreciate it. Really. I know I'm arguing hard for my original positions, and you're arguing the argument, but that's what arguments are SUPPOSED to be. Strongly held intellectual positions that come to some sort of compromise or understanding. So don't think I don't appreciate your criticism, as it all makes sense from your point of view. That being said...

Nyaricus said:
well, i understadn that you want characters with differnt stats to be able to get in this class, but it should be balanced against itself. what is your resoning behind giving int bonuses to light armours only? are those who wear fullplate stupid or something? this would only encourage swashbuckler-esque types to take a mere two level "dip" in this class (assuming you are not using the swashbuckler class/Duelist PrC class as is, but rather as a finesse-y fighter or paladin)

Light armors, by convention, are best exploited by "smart fighters"; that is to say, those fighters who prefer to out-think rather than out-last their opponents. The Duelist PrC uses this convention, and it fits here. Medium and Heavy armors, on the other hand, are used by professional fighters and soldiers. Again by literary convention, these fighters work a little more on instinct; they tend to feel their way through a fight, not analyzing every fight. They KNOW how a fight is going, because of their experience. Since rogues and bards tend to take light armors, and are 'thinking fighters', Int was appropriate (and precedented). Fighters, rangers, paladins, and clerics are 'intuitive fighters', so Wis is more appropriate. As for the natural armor bonus at the highest levels, I wanted to make the class become truly prestigious, and since this class is all about AC...

Nyaricus said:
as for my wizard/fighter/spellsword > i just was showing that you could easily exploit this classes abilities. a character (assuming he is the best he can be, or worst case of munchin-dom in this scenario) with the following levels: 3 wiz, 3 fighter, 1 spellsword, two RAG, with a chainshirt (not to mention magical ones) and towershield could have at 9th level 28 AC (10, +4 armour, +4 shield, +4 dex, +2 int, +4 mage armour [duh]) and their ASF halved. if they wear leather armour, it is negated, and they still have 26 AC. Also, theyd have a BAB of +6/+1, a casting levet of a 4 wiz, and plenty of HP. that is unbalanced, IMHO.

Your math is a bit off, I think, as is your sense of 'unbalanced'. The character mentioned above in the chain shirt does not have a low ASF chance; he has a 60% ASF. The tower shield has a 50% ASF and the chain shirt has a 20%. Since he's only got one level in Spellsword, his ASF is only knocked down by 10%. Yes, he could drop the Tower Shield, but that takes at least a movement action to drop (there are a lot of straps on one of those shields), and at least another movement action to pick it up again, if not a standard action. That's at least a full-round action AND a movement action to cast one spell with a low ASF.

As for the unbalanced bit, how is a 9th-level character with the BAB and hp of a cleric and the spellcasting ability of a 4th-level character that has to worry about ASF, but who has a higher AC than some other characters of the same level unbalanced? Sounds like a great meat shield, but under-effective in other areas of the game.

Nyaricus said:
as for the cleric, yes, this class comes at the expense of 8-10 levels of spells, but why should the cleric get the short end of the stick with regards to Special ability progression when the wiz/fighter/spellword aforementioned gets ALOT of good stuff? lets compare to before. a fighter 1/cleric 3 meets all requirements for this class. skip to level 5, he adds his Wis bonus to AC with medium armours. assuming he is the best he can be, he will have 20 Wis, 16 dex and breastplate armour. AC is 29 (10, +5 armour, +4 shield, +3dex, +5 Wis, +2 shield of faith) theres no chance of spellfailure, more HP than the wiz/fighter/spellsword, you get more abilities with RAG, a few okay cleric spells, and 3 more levels in RAG adds your Con mod to heavy armours, as well as your wis mod. WOW, i'll order three right of those now.

As mentioned, the spellsword above doesn't get a lot of good stuff in addition to his spellsword stuff. He gets it instead of his spellsword stuff. You have to realize that this is a non-spellcasting class. Arcane spellcasters will be severely weakened by this class, as there is no reduction in ASF (that's what the spellsword is for). Divine casters will be less weakened, as there is no ASF to worry about, but if they dedicate themselves to this class, I for one would hope that there's another cleric in the group who's dedicated to spellcasting.

Consider the difference between a Ftr 1/Clr 6/RAG 8 vs. a Clr 15. The gain of 8 more points of AC (assuming a 20 Wis and 16 Con) for one character is hardly worth the whole party losing access to holy word, resurrection, heal, blade barrier, forbiddance, plane shift, commune, or even divination. The multi-classed character is better at defending himself, and has a higher BAB, but isn't going to make much more of an impact than a dedicated fighter. The cleric can defend the entire party with his selection of spells, and can continue that usefulness after the fight is over.

Nyaricus said:
i dont mean to make you pisse off at me, but people will exploit this. finesse fighter/wiz will take a 2 level dip, and warrior-priests will have the aforementioned 5 level dip. this is the fact, and i have outlined it. sorry dude.

Okay. If a character doesn't want to continue on, that's fine. Five-levels isn't quite what I'd consider a "dip", though, as it takes up a quarter of a non-epic character's potential class choices. The two-level is a bit of a dip, but considering the characters that focus on light armor, the loss of skill points (or bardic abilities) is more than an adequate payment for the AC bonus.

Nyaricus said:
as i said before, you need to figure out what kind of bonuses you wish to apply to this class. maybe an un-named bonus to AC (like a monk or dwarven defender) would be a good idea, rather than baseing it off stats. this way, you favour none and embrace all. everyone wants to be a tank at some point.

I don't know if I agree that EVERYONE wants to be a tank at some point, at least not with every character. Sure, every player wants to at some point, and my guess is that they tend to play fighters or paladins then. But someone playing a wizened old wizard? I'm thinking probably not. :)

As for the bonus types, I definitely want to stick with Dodge bonuses and Natural Armor bonuses. They are both established bonus types, with specific rules on when they do and don't apply. That causes the least amount of confusion and the greatest ease in integration to a character's AC. At the highest level, it also frees up a magic item slot for the dedicated RAG (he won't need an amulet of natural armor), so he can dedicate that to something else (most likely an amulet of health, of course...)

Nyaricus said:
if you want a dedication to sword and shield, just have a special requirement > you must forgo any other style than sword and one-handed weapons. as to your metion of samurais later on, did not the steriotypical samurai go katana/wakizashi or just katana? that kinda invaididates that comment, dont you think?

I don't want to restrict the character from shifting his character's focus later if he wants; that's one of my biggest problems with paladins. Say the character goes dragon-hunting when he hits a nice high level. He's got lots of AC, and decides he can do without a shield so that he can use a nice big dragonbane greataxe that he got in a treasure trove. He shouldn't have to lose his class abilities because of a smart tactical decision.

Oh, and samurai traditionally ONLY used the katana in combat. They used it as a two-handed weapon that was well-balanced enough to use with one hand, which is why it's classified as a 'bastard sword' in 3E. The wakizashi was a matching blade that signified the owner's status as a samurai. Only the samurai were allowed to even HAVE wakizashi/katana sets; anyone else could only have the katana. Usually, the wakizashi wasn't even drawn unless the samurai had to commit seppuku.

Nyaricus said:
a 1 fighter/3 cleric meets all the requirements. 'nuff said

Nope, you forgot the 8 ranks in Craft (armorer). That requires a 5th-level character.

Nyaricus said:
id actually put ALL the requirements in, so as not to confuse people. WotC has that as their standard (and when it is forgotten, people do b*tch about it.

Good point. I'll edit again.

Nyaricus said:
armour profs depend on your type of character. you envsion paladins utilizing this class? you have to wait till level 8 to anything to come of that concept (or have a pally that isnt wearing padded armour and has 14 Int). this is why an un-named bonus would best reflect this.

Um, I'm not following this logic. How does an unnamed bonus serve any class better or worse than a Dodge bonus or a Natural Armor bonus? If you mean that there should just be a scaling AC bonus like the monk, I get it. I don't think I want to use it, but I get it. I still think that the character's preferred armor should reflect his natural tendencies (Int or Wis, with Con for the real meat-shields). Monks ALL learn combat evasion techniques as a science, so they all get the AC bonus. The RAG is more...organic in his approach.

Nyaricus said:
actually, you can already do that via the PHB rules. when a fighter gains his profs, he gains ALL light, med and heavy armours, incl. ones hes never used/seen. samurai type armour isnt exotic, just read oriental adventures to get the scoop. Just because its from another culture, it doesnt mean the fighter doesnt get profs in it (which is one of my gripes with the system as is > check out my weapon prof thread for more info)

True, the Samurai armor in OA is not exotic, but perhaps it should be for characters from other cultures. If you've seen The Last Samurai (or the Shogun mini-series), you know that the armor has specific rituals for putting it on. Everything is symbolic in armors that ornate, and the character has to know how to put it on. Think of...the water-retaining suits in Dune. Paul Atreides knew instinctively how to put in on like one of the Bremen. That's what the class ability gives the RAG: the ability to look at a suit of armor, no matter how complex, and put it on the way it was intended to be put on without outside instruction. In a ritually complex society (like samurai-era Japan), this could be very important.

Maybe the party needs to infiltrate a drow city, and the fighting instructors or weapon masters of this city have adopted a unique armor style that has very specific ritualistic bindings that denote rank or household or the like. Everyone recognizes the armor, and they fear it. An RAG wearing this armor could possibly cow the slaves or citizenry and could bluff their way past low-ranking guards.

Nyaricus said:
again, you have already left yourself venerable to 2 or 5 level dips. i say you need revision to help with this. also, with a 5 level Prc, you would have to re-balance this class to suit it. obviously, one couldn't add in all the great abilities you have created in 5 levels. what you really need is abilities for the later levels that would make characters want to take this class through all 10 levels and posibly even into epic levels. Also, you dont haev any amazing class feature that would make this a good epic level PrC. infact, the bonus feats would be the only thing that would take this PrC into epics levels, but the standard fighter classgets better progression, so PCs are likely to switch back into that class to get feats. if you have an un-named AC bonus, this (along with all the other abilities, minus the Master of Armour ability, adding in some other ones) would make this a viable Eipc Level PrC

Yeah, that last level is bothering me. I thought of enhancing the character's ability to resist Sunder attempts, perhaps allowing him to shatter weapons on his armor with a held action. Sort of like a counterspell attempt. Hmm...held action, weapons that attempt to sunder the character's equipment take equal damage when the sunder attempt is made. As the RAG has a bonus to his equipment's hardness, and the attacker probably doesn't, that would usually end in the RAG's favor. Axe handles would shatter, blades would snap, and enemies would be rapidly less effective. Sound good?

I still don't see the real problem with dipping 2 or 3 levels. There are a number of classes that are great for dipping, but not necessarily great for their whole progression. Just out of the DMG, we've got:
Arcane Archer (2 levels lets you add any area spell to your arrows)
Archmage (1 level lets you cast ANY elemental spell with whatever energy you like)
Dwarven Defender (1 level gives you 5-9 rounds of +4 AC, +4 Con (and the resulting hp), +2 Str, and +2 on all saves, once per day)
Heirophant (1 level gives you ranged ability with all of your healing spells, or their reverses)
Horizon Walker (depending on the campaign, 1-2 levels might give you an advantage with all of the enemies the characters might face)
Shadowdancer (1 level lets you potentially do a LOT of sneak attacks with hide in plain sight)

I would consider all of these classes 'dippable for their low-level abilities. Are they broken? No. Are players who only dip missing out on the higher level abilities? Yes. That's the beauty of the game: you can pick and choose to your heart's content and to the needs of the campaign you're in.

Nyaricus said:
in conclusion, i think you need to seriously look at what you want to do with this character, adn give us a more refined character concept. maybe some nice descriptive text would help up getthe feel of it better, and even just general ideas (new or your abilities broken down) will help us shape your PrC. cool class though man. i really like it, despite picking it apart so much. Apollogies, i honestly dont mean offense, just getting thru to my points.

I take no offense whatsover. As I said before, you have very solid reasons from your end, and I have them from my end. You're right that I should probably add a little more flavor to the class, so that people understand it a little better. A name would help, too. (In my mind, I keep coming back to Colossus, because of the armor as a second skin angle. That name conjures up something more...offensive rather than defensive. Also really big.)
 
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