Large Bugbear

Nothing special tonight. Just was revamping the goblinoids for an upcoming campaign. Wondered why bugbears, intended to be the tanks of the goblinoids, were Medium-sized. Tell me what you think. Thanks.

Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits:

• +12 Strength, +6 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class. -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
• Size/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
• A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Telepathy 30 feet (other goblinoids only)
• Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
• Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, and Swim.
• Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
• +5 natural armor bonus.
• +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
• Favored Class: Barbarian.
• Level adjustment +2.

What for? The telepathy? Otherwise, thanks for your comment.

I've wondered the same. They were L in AD&D, and now they seem like they're smaller than gnolls (who were also L, just not as bulky) half the time. There was that teeny tiny one that came from D&D Minis... I thought, "ooh, who's the hobgoblin with the beard?"

Back to your Q:
It's better than an ogre in just about every way, and ogres are LA+2. I'd bump it up to three, also. Four for the first PC to run one, then maybe dial back later, just to be safe. If it's not for PC use, who cares? Close is close enough.

Goblin is not on their list of automatic languages. Is it intended that they won't be able to speak goblin out loud? Can you use telepathy while raging?

Curious as to the change to Barbarian for favored class. It's a very synergistic choice, sure, but doesn't fit the "sneaky ambushers" view of the bugbears I've always imagined. Of course, that doesn't mean yours aren't different...

Natural armor (+5) is pretty substantial. A strength bonus of +12 is very substantial indeed. I don't think the telepathy is very significant, although it is an unusual take on goblinoids.

With 3 racial hit dice, and a +3 LA, it will be 4 points of BAB behind a human barbarian of the same ECL (usually meaning one less iterative attack), and have a -1 size penalty. But the bugbear will have a +6 attack bonus to strength and damage. Fewer hit dice, but each hit die is at +3 hit points due to high constitution. By the time they get 5 or 6 character levels they will have pulled even with a human barbarian.

Large size means the bugbear uses more space (can be attacked by more opponents) and has a -1 size penalty to AC. The natural armor bonus more than compensates.

To tell you the truth, the natural armor and ability bonuses suggest a +4 LA more than a +3.

What I would do, generally, is build a character with as many class levels as the LA and compare it with a human character of the same class, and the same ability scores (before racial modifiers). And then make a character with an ECL of 20, and compare it with a 20th level character. If they feel pretty much equal, then you got your LA down right.

So to test a +3 LA you'd make a bugbear barbarian 3, and compare it to a human barbarian 9. Then you'd make a bugbear barbarian 14 and compare it to a human barbarian 20.

A +4 LA would be a bugbear barbarian 4 vs a human barbarian 11, and a bugbear barbarian 13 vs the human barbarian 20. And so on.

Okay. Given your points some thought. (Haven't had a chance to do the whole testing thing, unfortunately - you know how it goes). I'll admit that all I really did was add the guidelines for increasing the size of a creature in the Monster Manual to the bugbear; as a result, some things don't really fit.

I should give you some idea of what my concept with this mod is. In the campaign I'm working on, goblinoids are a created race, the equivalent of genetically engineered soldiers. Each race of goblinoids has been created with a certain role in mind: goblins are primarily built for stealth and inflitration. Hobgoblins are infantry. And bugbears are the tanks; slow-moving, even for large creatures, and not very smart, but quite difficult to kill.

So, with that idea in mind, how about the following mods to what I have above:

• +12 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma
• Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class. -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
• Size/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
• A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Telepathy 20 feet (other goblinoids only)
• Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
• Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, Jump, Search, Spot, and Swim.
• Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
• +3 natural armor bonus.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
• Favored Class: Barbarian.

To sum up the changes: added penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom. Increased the penalty to Charisma. Also reduced the amount of Constitution bonus they get. Reduced their natural armor bonus by 2 points (to +3, the same as that of the Medium-sized bugbears). Took away the bonuses to Move Silently, because - hey - they're huge. They make a lot of noise when they move, any way you look at it.

What do you think? Are we getting closer to LA +2 material here?

some quick points . . .

Brasswatchman said:

Okay. Given your points some thought. (Haven't had a chance to do the whole testing thing, unfortunately - you know how it goes). I'll admit that all I really did was add the guidelines for increasing the size of a creature in the Monster Manual to the bugbear; as a result, some things don't really fit.

I should give you some idea of what my concept with this mod is. In the campaign I'm working on, goblinoids are a created race, the equivalent of genetically engineered soldiers. Each race of goblinoids has been created with a certain role in mind: goblins are primarily built for stealth and inflitration. Hobgoblins are infantry. And bugbears are the tanks; slow-moving, even for large creatures, and not very smart, but quite difficult to kill.

So, with that idea in mind, how about the following mods to what I have above:

• +12 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma
• Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class. -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
• Size/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
• A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Telepathy 20 feet (other goblinoids only)
• Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
• Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, Jump, Search, Spot, and Swim.
• Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
• +3 natural armor bonus.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
• Favored Class: Barbarian.

To sum up the changes: added penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom. Increased the penalty to Charisma. Also reduced the amount of Constitution bonus they get. Reduced their natural armor bonus by 2 points (to +3, the same as that of the Medium-sized bugbears). Took away the bonuses to Move Silently, because - hey - they're huge. They make a lot of noise when they move, any way you look at it.

What do you think? Are we getting closer to LA +2 material here?

Click to expand...

Cool idea, i think i may steal this guy for my forgottem realms games (also interesting to know that they were Large ized in AD&D > i havent heard any complaints before on that one). Now, into the nitty-gritty;

You say they are slow moving, even for large guys, adn yet the barb class is their favoured class. the +10 feet they gain for speed (per the core rule-books) brings em right back up to 40 fet speed. i say, knock em down to 20 feet base speed. with their barb level (and the game design issue that they are a created race and thus have a specific role that they have to fill, they wont likely NOT choose the barb class).

The fact that you have such high bonuses to ability scores, natural armour and a nice telepathy ability (VERY useful) doesnt make these guys a +2 LA race (to answer you question). I'd call them a weak +4 or a powerful +3 (give or take)

Why dont we compare them to Ogres, which these guys (basically) replace, or are at least the equivalent to. Ogres have 4 hit dice and are LA +2, and your Bugbears have 3 hit dcie and are LA +3 (approx)

i cant do this right now; i need to get ready for work, but thats a start. perhaps someone else will be helpful and do a comparison; if not, i will be back

later!