Gestalt as the only multiclass option

Li Shenron

Legend
This is just a thought, not something I would likely use.

Imagine to use gestalt characters together with normal single-class characters.
Normal multiclassing is not allowed, so gestalt becomes the only possible multiclassing, limited to two classes for the moment.
Prestige classes are not considered for the moment.

To balance gestalt characters with single-class characters, would it be more appropriate to use a LA or an XP penalty (like the 20% as in normal multiclassing), and how much?

Note how this system would look very much like 2e multiclassing rules, so it may actually not work at all as a whole :p
 

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Lorehead

First Post
Li Shenron said:
To balance gestalt characters with single-class characters, would it be more appropriate to use a LA or an XP penalty (like the 20% as in normal multiclassing), and how much?

Note how this system would look very much like 2e multiclassing rules, so it may actually not work at all as a whole :p
Fractional XP penalties do not work with the 3E XP charts, period. They would only work with a geometric progression.
 

One of the lost threads was on this subject.. ended up calling them 'multige' classes I think.

One of the balancing factors we ended up discussing was a requirement to have multi-classed in the two base classes. You then needed to maintain a ratio between the normal class levels and the multige class level. I didn't save the end result of that thread.. maybe someone else will remember it :)

The system eliminated the 'combo' PrCs like Mytsic Theurge but still allowed the single class specific PrCs that are more like class variants.
 

Vargo

First Post
I've considered doing a "no prestige class" campaign, PHB classes only, where gestalt was a +2 LA option. This puts the person somewhat behind the other classes, but still gives them the synergistic advantages that only, say, a Monk/Druid can manifest. Or rather, could, before they revised wild shape.
 


Bront

The man with the probe
Li Shenron said:
Not sure myself. In fact, normal multi-classing rules have a flat penalty as well. The only thing I can think of is that lower level characters end up earning more XP, but the % should still hurt them, particularly if you make the % increase for each gestalt level they take (maybe 5-10%)
 


Lorehead

First Post
Li Shenron said:
That's a fair question. The short answer is: because otherwise the penalty doesn't grow at the same rate as the cost of a level. Sean K. Reynolds provides an example of how fractional XP penalties fail in practice, but not an explanation.

The long answer involves math. If you don't have the appetite for it, that's fine, but in that case you should not try to change any of the crunchy parts of the game, because you won't be able to predict the consequences.

Let's say, for example, that you have the following XP chart:

Level 2: 1 000 XP
Level 3: 2 000 XP
Level 4: 4 000 XP
Level 5: 8 000 XP
...

Now, suppose you give Aaron the aasimar half XP (but calculate XP as if he were the same level as his teammates). When everyone else has 2,000 XP and reaches level 3, Aaron will have 1,000 XP and reach level 2. When everyone else reaches level 4, Aaron will reach level 3, and so on. In other words, a 50% XP penalty with this XP chart is exactly the same as a LA +1. In addition, this system has more granularity than the existing XP chart. If you decided that aasimar are underpowered with a 50% penalty, you could instead give them a 1/3 penalty (but still calculate XP awards as if Aaron had his unmodified XP). This would mean that Aaron always levels up when the rest of the party is halfway to its next level.

You can't do this if the XP chart is non-geometric. It doesn't work. If you try giving Aaron a fractional XP penalty in 3E, regardless of what fraction you choose, you get the results that Sean K. Reynolds noted above, namely: the character frequently has no penalty at low levels, but falls more and more levels behind the higher you go.

So far, I've given you only a few examples. Here's a more rigorous treatment. By definition, each element in a geometric progression is equal to its predecessor times some constant r. If the XP cost of each level increases, r > 1. So, if the function x(n), denoting the XP needed to reach level n, follows a geometric progression, x(n) = kr^n, where k is some constant.

Now, suppose that we award the character only some proportion p of the experience he would otherwise earn. Since we're discussing XP penalties, we assume that 0 < p < 1. We'll denote the amount of XP he needs to reach a level as x'(n). Since he receives only p XP for every XP he would otherwise earn, px'(n) = x(n) for all n. Therefore, x'(n) = x(n)/p = (k/p)r^n.

Now, p is a constant between 0 and 1. This means that 1/p is, like r, a constant greater than 1, which in turn implies that 1/p = r^j for some j. Taking the log of both sides, we get: log (1/p) = j log r. Solving for j, we obtain: j = - log p/log r.

Now, we determined two paragraphs up that x'(n) = x(n)/p = (k/p)r^n. We can now take this a step further: x'(n) = (k/p)r^n = k(r^j)r^n = kr^(n+j) = x(n+j) = x(n - log p/log r). We therefore see that a character with an XP penalty is always a fixed number of levels ahead or behind a character without one; to be precise, - log p/log r levels behind.

Revisiting our examples above, we initially used values of k = 500, p = 1/2 and r = 2. This gives us a value of j = -1, which tells us that Aaron will indeed always be one level behind. Next, we looked at p = 2/3 and r = 2. In this case, x'(n) = 1.5x(n) = 1.5kr^n = 1.5×500×2^n = 500×2^(n+0.58). We confirm that, indeed, -log (2/3)/log 2 = 0.58.

As Sean K. Reynolds has already shown a counterexample to the contention that the same will be true of the 3E XP table, there is no need for me to proceed further.

Because the AD&D XP charts used a close-to-geometric progression at low levels, fractional XP penalties happened, by total coincidence, to work most of the time. It is naïve to assume that the same approach would work in 3E.
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
Commander, your logic is flawless, but...

You are assuming that the penalty should grow as the same rate as the level for the rule to be acceptable. You prove that LA achieves that and SKR proves that % penalty does not achieve that. But can you prove that achieving that is a good thing?

SKR has some good point in saying that % has a flaw which LA doesn't have: the fact that most of the time the more powerful PC is not really penalized. But forgets to mention that:
(1) that it is more fair to penalized all the time is his own assumption, a character penalized 30% of the time is still penalized on the average, which is not necessarily worse
(2) LA itself has some a flaw which % doesn't: it makes it extremely difficult to play the character along a party with no LA, when the LA is high compared to the class levels (because of the HP problem)

The point is that LA works very well only as long as it doesn't exceed +2. Higher LA require at least to play a high-level campaign, but still many people hate it. There are in fact attempts to make it hold better (UA optional rule for example).

That said, I do not mind whether a system is imperfect, as long as it is reasonable. LA is very unfair in a vacuum, as it fails to make creatures with unual strong powers playable (e.g. Mind Flayers). But still I use it because it's better than nothing.

ANYWAY :) I wish to discuss the topic about gestalt classes used in the same game with normal single-class characters. It is not the same as multiclassing, and it is not the same as playing a race with ability bonuses and special powers. It is very different indeed. So what doesn't work with the other two, is not necessarily going to fail with gestalt. For instance, the ability bonuses of LA races tend to become less relevant at higher levels because they are fixed bonuses; I do not think that the benefit of gestalt becomes less at high levels, quite the contrary (think of the synergies)!

Because you seem to have a much better grasp of math than me :p I'd definitely appreciate if you'd help calculating what would happen to a gestalt character with either methods, and to estimate if it's possible to devise a fair penalty.

Engage! :D
 

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