Meta-gaming Player

I have a problem with a player who continually meta-games. At the moment it is not too extreme and I have previously dealt with a player who was much worse. He rarely does anything in character and is always thinking about loot and XP. This is not necessarily a bad thing in the right sort of group but everyone else is not like that. He is a stark contrast to the rest of the group and it kind of stands out.

The rest of the group, a couple of players in particular, get right into their characters. They make sub-optimal combat choices or say things that they know out-of-character are dumb but are still things that their character would do. The meta-gamer seems to treat the game as some sort of tactical wargame. I understand that this is a valid way to play and is originally where D&D came from in the first place. That doesn't really help my situation though!

It there any hope of turning him around to a similar playstyle as everyone else or do you think that this is just a situation where he just wants to play a different sort of game to the rest of us and it is best if we just part ways?

The meta-gamer has come up with a background which is a step in the right direction and better than what some players do. However the background is that his wife was taken by slavers. He knows that he doesn't have enough money or power to rescue her so he took up adventuring to try and fix that problem. This conveniently matches in with his meta-gaming wishes for more loot and XP. Personally, I think if someone took my wife I would be trying to get her back at all costs. If I died trying then at least I know I tried. I wouldn't go work out in the gym, take martial arts, boxing and firearms training for a year or so and then give it a go!

The last session that we played he got a little upset a couple of times. The first time was because I wouldn't let him carry into town the 9 light crossbows and 9 longspears that he had taken from some fiendish locathah that the party had killed. My arguement was how he was going to carry them (never mind that they were coated in sewerage and slime). The rest of the players hadn't even though about taking them but he just saw them as XXgp resale value.

The other incident involved him wanting to scribe a spell on a scroll. The party is in the city of Freeport, a reasonably big place. He just wanted to cross off XXgp from his character sheet and then scribe the scroll. I asked where and how he planned to get the paper and materials from. He said that they were common items and he should be able to find them easily.

This is a fair enough arguement but I think that it is besides the point. What is the point of playing an RPG if you are just going to fast foward past all of the interactions with people that are not explicitly related to the main plot. We only play once a fortnight and he said afterwards that he didn't want the game to be taken up with stuff like that. The rest of the group didn't have a problem with it but he just seemed to be in a hurry to keep everything moving forward at a rapid rate.

After only 2 sessions of about 4-4.5 hours each he asked when we were going to level up because it seemed to be taking ages. (As a side note the party levelled, going from 3rd to 4th, halfway through the next session)

Is there any way that I can get him out of the meta-gaming mentality or is it better if we just go our seperate ways? I can tell that our playstyles are very different, but do you think there are ways that I can keep him happy, without destroying everyone else's fun?

Olaf the Stout

P.S. Apologies if it sounds a little bitchy and one-sided.

You seem to view D&D like me: it's a world and I want to live in it. Your player views D&D simply as a video game. Nothing wrong with either view, but they don't mix well at all.

I would say that you don't have to kick him out. Just keep enforcing your preferred gamestyle at the table and he will eventually leave on his own. Powergamers & ruleslawyers you can deal with, but a guy that treats it as a video game is harder to cater to and keep everyone happy.

I've had a player like that (my co-worker). I introduced him to D&D. He liked it at first but he got tired of it soon because he couldn't get out of thinking of it as a video game. If I DM'ed it differently, I know he would have a blast. But that's not the way I DM and that isn't the type of game we play at our table.

What I've learned with conflicting gaming styles....the players never seem to last. If you keep trying to get him into your style of gaming, you may get lucky and he'll finally latch on and enjoy it. But most likely he'll just stop showing up.

I think it's worth at least trying to talk to him about your expectations and desires for the game and what he's expecting of it. If there are places you're willing to compromise a little, and if he's willing to work with you, it's possible it would work out. Some of my players (I DM for two groups) have fairly contrasting gaming styles from me, but we've worked together to have a pair of quite successful campaigns, with both DM and players enjoying themselves. And one of the reasons for it is because I'm quite open about why I'm doing what I do and discussing it regularly with players. At worst, you try and he eventually leaves. What have you got to lose?

And one thing:

Olaf the Stout said:

The other incident involved him wanting to scribe a spell on a scroll. The party is in the city of Freeport, a reasonably big place. He just wanted to cross off XXgp from his character sheet and then scribe the scroll. I asked where and how he planned to get the paper and materials from. He said that they were common items and he should be able to find them easily.

This is a fair enough arguement but I think that it is besides the point. What is the point of playing an RPG if you are just going to fast foward past all of the interactions with people that are not explicitly related to the main plot. We only play once a fortnight and he said afterwards that he didn't want the game to be taken up with stuff like that. The rest of the group didn't have a problem with it but he just seemed to be in a hurry to keep everything moving forward at a rapid rate.

Click to expand...

As a DM and player, this is the kind of thing I like to handwave. My games are very heavily character and roleplay-driven, and even when running a weekly game I can't see a benefit in having to play out each and every interaction. There are a lot of interactions that aren't related to the main plot, but will it improve the game if I have players roleplay minor shopping expeditions? Nope, as far as I'm concerned. And having other players sit around while one or two of them are embarking on roleplaying encounters which aren't really relevant to the game doesn't seem particularly productive either. I would especially not want to spend time on it in a fortnightly game. Something you might consider is playing out such interactions over email. I'm in a fortnightly game DMed by Mallus, and there have been roleplaying interactions that are absolutely crucial to my character that I've suggested to the DM that we play out over email. Would it have been relevant to the main plot and been enjoyable for me at the table? Absolutely. Do I want to make the other players wait for me while I'm having my fun? No.

Just giving you a little bit of a different perspective.

shilsen said:

I think it's worth at least trying to talk to him about your expectations and desires for the game and what he's expecting of it. If there are places you're willing to compromise a little, and if he's willing to work with you, it's possible it would work out. Some of my players (I DM for two groups) have fairly contrasting gaming styles from me, but we've worked together to have a pair of quite successful campaigns, with both DM and players enjoying themselves. And one of the reasons for it is because I'm quite open about why I'm doing what I do and discussing it regularly with players. At worst, you try and he eventually leaves. What have you got to lose?

And one thing:



As a DM and player, this is the kind of thing I like to handwave. My games are very heavily character and roleplay-driven, and even when running a weekly game I can't see a benefit in having to play out each and every interaction. There are a lot of interactions that aren't related to the main plot, but will it improve the game if I have players roleplay minor shopping expeditions? Nope, as far as I'm concerned. And having other players sit around while one or two of them are embarking on roleplaying encounters which aren't really relevant to the game doesn't seem particularly productive either. I would especially not want to spend time on it in a fortnightly game. Something you might consider is playing out such interactions over email. I'm in a fortnightly game DMed by Mallus, and there have been roleplaying interactions that are absolutely crucial to my character that I've suggested to the DM that we play out over email. Would it have been relevant to the main plot and been enjoyable for me at the table? Absolutely. Do I want to make the other players wait for me while I'm having my fun? No.

Just giving you a little bit of a different perspective.

Click to expand...

Funny that you should mention that. I did ask everyone at the start whether they would like to play those sorts of things out over e-mail (especially since when you play once a fortnight time is precious). I don't think that I got much of an answer from the group at the time but I asked everyone again in the last e-mail I sent out yesterday after the session.

I personally like playing through the little details. I am aware that some people don't though and also that, even if people do, it normally results in everyone else sitting around getting bored while one person deals with their stuff.

E-mail is great for handling this sort of thing. If the session ends in town I can get the players to e-mail me what they want to do (if anything) for the next couple of days. Since we only play once a fortnight it means that there is plenty of time to play it out, even if you are only checking your e-mails every day or so.

My issue is more with him wanting to video game it all (i.e. I found 9 light crossbows, should I write that down or just convert it into its GP resale value?). Okay, so it's not quite as bad as I make it out to be in my example but you get the picture. Its like he's Neo in the Matrix and all he can see in XP and GP rather than people, monsters and items.

Olaf the Stout

Start to award a good chunk of the XP for roleplaying. Any "encounter" XP should be shared equally among the entire party.

Next, give him some hints about the whereabouts of the slavers and his wife. Maybe another villager who was taken by the slavers at the sdame time as the PC's wife managed to escape. Then have him get his hands on a big chunk of loot. Remind him of his backstory if necessary. See what happens...

Conaill said:

Start to award a good chunk of the XP for roleplaying. Any "encounter" XP should be shared equally among the entire party.

Next, give him soem hints on the whereabouts of the slavers and his wife. Then have him get his hands on a big chunk of loot. Remind him of his backstory if necessary. See what happens...

Click to expand...

I am bringing in a roleplaying award as of next session. It will be something along the lines of the GM scores each player from 1-10 each session depending on how well he played his character. This is then multiplied by 20(?)XP and their character level.

So a level 4 character (the party's current level) could get anywhere from 80 (1 x 20 x 4) to 800 (10 x 20 x 4) roleplaying XP each session.

I still haven't decided on how big the roleplaying XP should be (up to 800 XP per session sounds a little high for level 4 characters) but you get the general idea.

As for his wife, so far he hasn't shown any interest in following it up. Maybe if I remind him and give him some clues about it then I may get somewhere.

Olaf the Stout

I would keep the size of the xp reward fairly small (somewhere is the range of 50 xp per level). You don't want your video gamer to see this as a punishment for his play style... And if he's missing out on a big chunk of xp that the other players are getting, that is exactly what he will see it as. Your video gamer is very VERY reward oriented, so if you want to change his behavior, you're going to have to reward the behavior that you want to see... But he's also very VERY punishment averse. If he sees what you're doing as a punishment (like I said, this is quite likely if you make your xp reward too big, especially if he's not getting it), its going to piss him right off.

Also, make sure that you use your words as much as possible. Be very open and upfront about using this xp bonus as a way to reward roleplaying, and that you want to encourage more roleplaying.

That said... You may not be able to change the habits of this player, but it never (well okay, sometimes, but very rarely) hurts to try to encourage someone to play more to your style...

Later
silver

This is a fair enough arguement but I think that it is besides the point. What is the point of playing an RPG if you are just going to fast foward past all of the interactions with people that are not explicitly related to the main plot. We only play once a fortnight and he said afterwards that he didn't want the game to be taken up with stuff like that. The rest of the group didn't have a problem with it but he just seemed to be in a hurry to keep everything moving forward at a rapid rate.

Click to expand...

I gotta admit, I can relate to this. While I do like rp and getting into character, spending thirty minutes of game time dickering over paper seems a waste of time to me. I'm in a game like this currently and it's driving me somewhat batty. Perhaps an idea would be to meet in the middle for things like this.

For those who want to do this sort of thing, perhaps taking it to emails or a wiki format would be better. Have a side forum (there's lots of free ones out there) for those who enjoy role playing ever single minute of their character's lives and leave the once every two weeks face to face sessions for the main story.

Just a thought.

Throw stuff at him that isn't standard.
Increase a gelatinous cube to gargantuan size. Give goblins some rogue levels. Something he won't expect.

And most important of all, encourage good role-playing by giving XP bonuses. When others level and he does not because he won't rp, then it may encourage him.

It's a long slow road.
Sometimes it's actually worth it.

I wouldn't describe his actions as being "meta-gamey" so much as being "video-gamey". I would describe your player as maybe more of a casual gamer than anything else. He might be a butt-kicked too, in which case his primary motivation is just to move to the next action sequence as quickly as possible.

I had a meta-gamer in my group. This player would constantly try to evaluate where I wanted the party to go, so that he could go there to move the action forward. Plus, he would always justify his actions based on meta-game assumptions, like "we could proceed down this hallway even though we're slightly injured. We're only 6th level, the DM wouldn't throw a 10th level creature at us". Stuff like that. That's meta-gaming.

I do that to a certain degree, too, but I don't advertise it. Once in a campaign, my 1st level character brazenly spoke to an ancient red dragon (who was really more of an NPC in that campaign than a monster), because I knew the GM wouldn't kill my character after I'd spent 2 hours building the character with him just a few sessions prior. And I was right.


Anyway, I guess I don't have any real advice for you, other than to just say that his play style is obviously different. I would just try talking to him to find out what motivates him. Have him take the Robin Laws Game Style Meme. Someone else can post that link. I don't have it handy ATM.

That should tell you what his style is. I had all my players do that before we started so that I could get a sense of what they would each be motivated by. It's fairly accurate.

Ah, here it is.

http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=62192