Is Sunder a Standard Action or just something you can do any time you melee attack?

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RigaMortus2

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #1

I am kind of confused on Sunder. I used to play it like Trip. As long as you are making a melee attack, you can instead attempt a Sunder. Then I heard it was actually it's own action, a Standard Action (meaning only once per round, and can't perform it as an AoO). The problem is, in the table for Standard Actions, it is listed as such. But when you read the actual text description, it doesn't say it is a Standard Action. It just says you can use a melee attack to make the Sunder attempt. I would think it should either (a) state in the text that it is a Standard Action or (b) be under the "Action Type Varies" section of the table, much like Disarm, Grapple and Trip is. So when there is a discrepancy, do you generally follow what the text says, or the table?

SUNDER
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

Click to expand...

 

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Patryn of Elvenshae

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #2

Sunder does not have the footnote 7 which denotes that it can be used in place of an attack.

Therefore, it cannot, and is a standard action.

 

R

RigaMortus2

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #3

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

Sunder does not have the footnote 7 which denotes that it can be used in place of an attack.

Therefore, it cannot, and is a standard action.

Click to expand...

Is this according to the table or the text? Because you still run into the problem of text vs table. Of course it's not going to have that foot note if it is listed on the wrong table (assuming that is the case).

 

Vegepygmy

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #4

RigaMortus2 said:

So when there is a discrepancy, do you generally follow what the text says, or the table?

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Your question about Sunder is often debated here, and I don't think anyone can offer anything more than a strong opinion to help guide you.

However, official sources have repeatedly advised that where text and table disagree, you should follow the text.

 

L

Legildur

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #5

<grabs popcorn and soda and sits down in a comfy chair to watch the debate rage>

(for what it's worth, I say Sunder is a Standard Action only - and cannot be substituted for an attack like Trip, Disarm etc)

 

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Ogrork the Mighty

Explorer

• Jul 11, 2006

• #6

I've always thought Sunder could be used in place of attack(s). However, I think Sunder should be a standard action.

 

glass

(he, him)

• Jul 11, 2006

• #7

Vegepygmy said:

However, official sources have repeatedly advised that where text and table disagree, you should follow the text.

Click to expand...

Of course, but the debate is whether there is disagreement between the text and the table.

IMO, the text doesn't specify one way or the other; the table does. I'm in 'standard action only' camp.


glass.

 

Sammael

Adventurer

• Jul 11, 2006

• #8

The rules aren't clear. I believe the intent was for sunder to be a standard action to ensure that BBEGs don't always go for the PCs' weapons.

 

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RigaMortus2

First Post

• Jul 11, 2006

• #9

glass said:

Of course, but the debate is whether there is disagreement between the text and the table.

IMO, the text doesn't specify one way or the other; the table does. I'm in 'standard action only' camp.


glass.

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Well of course there is a disagreement between text and table. In the text it just says you can make a melee attack to Sunder. A melee attack is not limited to Standard Actions. Melee attacks can happen multiple times as part of a full attack, or as an AoO, or even an extra attack such as with Cleave.

 

glass

(he, him)

• Jul 11, 2006

• #10

RigaMortus2 said:

Well of course there is a disagreement between text and table. In the text it just says you can make a melee attack to Sunder.

Click to expand...

Indeed it does. Because when you attempt a sunder, you make an melee attack. It doesn't say one way or the other whether this melee attack is interchangeable with melee attacks in general.


glass.