Pick And Mix Expanded Language - Wolv0rine

Divergance from the Automated Literacy poll...

Wolv0rine said:

If you want to avoid requiring any feats for language(s) and literacy, there's a nice little Pick n' Mix product that outlines a new Language Skill that folds in levels of literacy in with levels of fluency.
Granted, I wrote it, so I rather like it.

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Hmm, sadly as much as I tried to generate any feedback on it at all, I completely failed to get so much as a single person willing to say a single thing about it.
But, let's see.. the Expanded Language Skill breaks every language down into 6 levels (each level with a corresponding literacy and eloquence level). Your native language you automatically start with at 3rd rank (Literacy level 1-2 syllables, Strong accent, Eloquence level 3-4 syllables).
There is actually a section of that document that is missing (in that it was left out and not missed in both writing and editing, granted without it it could easily be assumed to work with straigth sklill points like any other skill). But I'll post it here in the event you (or abnyone else) gets the PnM.

"A character begins play knowing his native language at 3rd rank, plus a number of language ranks equal to his Intelligence modifier that can be allocated as the player wants (meaning these ranks can be used for additional starting languages). If the character’s Intelligence modifier is a negative number, then the character’s native language ranks are reduced by that number, although a beginning character will always have at least 1 rank in his native language. After 1st level, language ranks are bought with skill points."

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Didn't want to muck up the other thread

Do you do anything for related languages? eg., ancient dwarven can be partially understood by someone with ranks in modern dwarven?

*chuckles* No, nothing so complex. Between the fact that I didn't want to create an entire full rulesystem within the guise of a skill (although Hero 4th Ed. did a pretty good job of outlining the concept you're asking about, but for modern Earth languages), plus the fact that as a Pick n' Mix I only had a page or so to work with, it's reasonably simple.

The skill itself only deals with the skill and it's ranks. It doesn't talk about the languages themselves, but how the skill deals with them. Now, I'm all for a flexible DM, and a flexible DM could (and if the group wants it, damned-well should) give some kind of synergy bonus and/or decipher script chance or something for closely related languages, but such concepts were beyond the scope of the Pick n' Mix.

It's an interesting question, and I may further expand the skill along these lines by means of sidebar'ed suggestions if/when the skill crops up elsewhere.

Primitive Screwhead said:

Do you do anything for related languages? eg., ancient dwarven can be partially understood by someone with ranks in modern dwarven?

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Sounds like a good idea for another Pick'N'Mix though!

MHO (WARNING! You won't like it!)

I bought the Pick'n'Mix. Paid 49 cents for it, and, frankly, felt I wasted my money! Here's why...

Skill points are too rare, already. No PC living all his life within a day's ride of his home should be without Knowledge (Local), yet no one but a Bard, Rogue, or Wizard is likely to have it, because a single rank will cost them two skill points.

Now, along comes this language system where you have to buy literacy (and even the ability to speak!) in every language that your PC would OTHERWISE have had, and with no increase in skill points? I'm sorry, but I already see D&D PCs as being too ignorant & incompetent! I don't want to add in another system that makes them even more so! I want to go the other direction, and add in a system of Background Skills, allowing PCs some free ranks in things that anyone from their race/society should know!

A typical D&D PC with Intelligence 18 gets Common, plus a possible Racial Tongue (if Non-Human), plus four other languages, can speak all of them fluently, and (unless a Barbarian) read all of them, as well. In your system, he can speak ONE with level 3 fluency, barely read - and what about Common? Hmmm! It doesn't seem to say! He can add three more points to become totally (rank 6) fluent in his native language, and somewhat fluent in Common (or another language, assuming Common is allowed to everyone), but will be lacking the four other languages, not even being able to recognize them, if he sees writing in them, or hears them spoken!

Not a very good trade, in my opinion! No thanks, I'm using the D&D system: spend two skill points (one, if a Bard!), and become totally fluent in both written and spoken (Whatever). Why you (seem to) see ignorance as a boon to your games, I'll never know.

(Tolja you wouldn't like it!)

Steverooo, I may not like it, but it's an opinion. And those are better than nothing.
That being said, most of your problems seem to stem from an omission in the PnM itself that I didn't notice for a long time. I pasted it into the topic this thread branched off of, but I don't know if you saw it. Anyway, tell me if this addition helps with the problems you have with the skill.

"A character begins play knowing his native language at 3rd rank, plus a number of language ranks equal to his Intelligence modifier that can be allocated as the player wants (meaning these ranks can be used for additional starting languages). If the character’s Intelligence modifier is a negative number, then the character’s native language ranks are reduced by that number, although a beginning character will always have at least 1 rank in his native language. After 1st level, language ranks are bought with skill points."

Now granted, that still only gives a beginning character a base rank 3 in his native tongue plus up to 4 additional starting ranks (which don't go very far, again granted). You could easily double that number, and the more I look at it, the more I'm thinking that (Int mod x 2) might work better.
I wrote it from the perspective of wanting characters to speak fewer languages (this is a fantasy world, actual schooling is rare at BEST, the number of characters - heroes or not - who can speak a dozen languages fluently should be fairly low). Although granted, the skill was originally written for use in my campaign world.

steverooo said:

your system, he can speak ONE with level 3 fluency, barely read - and what about Common?

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Figured I'd answer this part directly.
In this system, he has one Native language that he has a 3rd rank by default. He knows 3-4 syllable words (pretty good for the education level of most D&D worlds, I think) and can read/write 1-2 syllable words. Now, in this post alone (not counting names) the number of words that exceed 1-2 syllables is 24 (opinion, omission, addition, characters, character, language, intelligence, modifier, allocated, additional, negative, reduced, beginning, easily, perspective, fantasy, fluently, originally, directly, syllable, education, certainly, introduce, and majority). That seems like a big number until you look at how many words are in the post in all. You can get a lot across with 1-2 syllable words.
And I figure Common is a language like any other. For a good number of human races in many games, Common is the native tongue.

So, if you find the structure of the skill good, but the amount of skill points it eats unfair, hand out some more skill points is my advice.
I certainly wasn't going to try to introduce a skill that came with it's own pool of skill points to pay for itself (and thus make it free) and assume that the majority would think it was a good thing, although I did consider it.

((Edited for additional points I kept forgetting to add and general typo hell))

I have yet to muster up other stuff to buy along with this, but thought I would point you over to my HR thread for My Culture Rules

I take it a bit farther down the road you seem to be one and I would like to compare/contrast
I guess its time to search out EnWorld for some goodies... perhaps the Le's Pirates is up....

I do away with Common as it doesn't fit my idea of how a multi-culteral world should work. I also do away with Knowledge: Local. The new cascading skill of Culture comes with every class gaining +1 skill points per level.
This is a balance between the new requirement for language and a general feeling that characters could use more skills anyway.

Wolv0rine said:

In this system, he has one Native language that he has a 3rd rank by default. He knows 3-4 syllable words (pretty good for the education level of most D&D worlds, I think) and can read/write 1-2 syllable words.

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This doesn't particularly make any sense to me. It's highly language-dependent; you couldn't anything in a highly polysynthetic language in 3-4 syllables. For example, in Chukchi, "I have a headache" would be Təmeyŋəlevtpəγtərkən. I don't see why they couldn't write 3 or 4 syllable words; it's merely a matter of continuing to write down more letters, especially if the writing system didn't use spaces or other word seperators, like many early ones didn't.

prosfilaes said:

This doesn't particularly make any sense to me. It's highly language-dependent; you couldn't anything in a highly polysynthetic language in 3-4 syllables. For example, in Chukchi, "I have a headache" would be Təmeyŋəlevtpəγtərkən. I don't see why they couldn't write 3 or 4 syllable words; it's merely a matter of continuing to write down more letters, especially if the writing system didn't use spaces or other word seperators, like many early ones didn't.

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This is true, it is very language dependant. All I can say is I'm not a linguist, I'm a gamer who wanted a workable language skill, and wrote it from the viewpoint of the language I knew. The breakdown by syllable-count was basically the best way I could think of to represent words which were more complex. The uneducated tend to speak (at least in english) in smaller, simpler words while the more educated have a greater array of complex and (usually) longer words. A 'commoner' may say explain (2 syllables), while a more educated person might chose to say 'elucidate' (4 syllables).

Which is neither here nor there, I suppose, but I am enjoying the chance to explain parts of it, and get counterpoints from people. That's how things improve, afterall.

WulvO, I have to wonder if you even READ my post... If so, you need to put some more skill points into reading comprehension! Okay, let's try this again...

We are not going to agree. You want more ignorant PCs, I want more generally well-educated, capable ones. Your system won't work for me, no matter what you do. Two men can't walk together unless they agree upon a destination, and we're going in opposite directions...

Nonetheless, your system seems poorly thought-out, to me, doesn't address some pretty basic questions, and is lacking required information. I have to wonder if these things have escaped your attention. I will elucidate.

First of all, the .PDF DOES mention that you get three ranks in your native language, although it omits the addition of a number of ranks depending upon the INT Bonus. Your pointing out the quote at the top of this thread, again, doesn't address my concerns, as not only did I previously read them, but even alluded to them in my pervious post (hence my wondering if you had even read it, and, if so, suggesting upping reading comp.)!

Now to the stuff you didn't address, that needs to be. I asked about Common. You said it's treated like any other language. Let me stretch this out, and make my point...

Two Humans, an Elf, a Dwarf, a Halfling, and a Half-Orc get together, and form a party. The Humans speak Common, the Elf speaks Elven, the Dwarf speaks Dwarven, the Halfling speaks Halfling, and the Half-Orc speaks...? Add a Half-Elf, and what does she speak? We don't know! The GM & Players are going to have to figure this out for themselves. Anyway!...

Most PCs will have an INT Bonus of +2 or so (especially if Point Buy). Any Wizard character is going to want to have their writing skill maxed out, to take advantage of the Scribe Scroll Feat. Let's assume that the Elf is the Wizard, and puts three MORE ranks into Elven. The other PCs increase their native language no more, and take two ranks of Common, except for the Half-Orc Barbarian, who has no INT Bonus, but a penalty, and speaks Orcish haltingly.

Now we have Two Humans with Common-5, an Elf with Elven-6 (who had to "buy" a rank with skill points), a Halfling with Halfling-3 and Common-2, and a Half-Orc with Orcish-2. They meet in a tavern, and... discover that they can't communicate! Two of them speak no Common. Is that what you intended? (This is the point I was trying to get at, in my first post, where I pointed out that you didn't address Common!)

Now, let's look at the Elven Wizard... How much did he have to pay for that extra rank? Hmmm! Again, you didn't address this, so what do the RAW say? Only Bards get languages as a class skill... everyone else pays two skill points! So, it costs our Elven Wizard two skill points to become fully literate in Elven. If he wants to speak Common, as well, it will cost him at least two more. It would cost him 12 skill points to become fully literate in Common, and he would be totally illiterate for the first four or five!

OUCH! That's pretty harsh!

No, I don't think the mechanics are sound. Here's another problem: Decipher Script.

For most PCs, reading a language fluently will cost them 12 skill points. Doing the good ol' "End-Around", and sinking 12 skill points into Decipher Script will give them a +6 (+12 for Bards and Rogues) to read/write ANY language, and is a much wiser use of skill points!

So, explain to me why having the PCs being unable to speak/read multiple languages is a good thing, to you, please? Why did you design this system to accomplish this goal? To give more "Oomph!" to the Bard (the only class with Languages as a Class Skill)?

My Ranger, who takes the languages of his Favoured Enemies (so that he can sneak up and use his maxed-out Listen skill to spy on them), will curse the name of WolvOrine (and any GM who uses his system)!

Of course, I guess it only takes two skill points (one rank) of any language to understand what NPCs are saying, but the descriptions make it sound like you need three ranks (six skill points) to get most of what native speakers are saying...

So, again, NO THANKS! We can't walk together! Even if I doubled the INT Bonus, and made Languages a Class Skill for Rangers, I don't need a Sense Motive roll to smell mutiny brewing! PC parties that can't communicate, Wizards who mess up their scroll-scribing, Clerics who have to pay extra to increase their literacy in some language so that they can take the Feat... even if another Pick'n'Mix added the note about doubling INT Bonuses (or penalties for the poor Half-Orc Barbarian!), and made languages a Class Skill for all classes...

No, thanks!

Steverooo said:

WulvO, I have to wonder if you even READ my post... If so, you need to put some more skill points into reading comprehension! Okay, let's try this again...

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Smilies or no, that can comes across as quite hostile and designed to make the other person feel defensive. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but please - it's worth going out of your way not to come across as rude to people, even when you disagree with them about the topic at hand.

Thanks.