• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Rules Never Prevent RPing? (But Minis Seem To Do So?)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
The debate continues as to whether D&D is moving further and further away from being an RPG and toward being a (some say "glorified") Minis Combat Game. In another thread, BryonD posts -

BryonD said:
If you choose to stop roleplaying and treat combat as a skirmish mini-game then that is a choice you have made. Heck, you could toss out the role-playing completely and use the D&D combat system as a mini wargame and nothing more if you so selected.

But, that would be a choice. And individual selection, as I said, is purely a function of what goes on between the ears of the person making that selection.
You CAN choose to NOT roleplay D&D combat. That does not make it not a roleplaying game. You can choose TO roleplay Descent (or even Monopoly) and that does not make these games BE roleplaying games.

In my experience there is nothing to inhibit roleplaying during D&D combat. The players each have characters who, unlike, say Desecnt characters, have larger motivations and goals. Sometimes it doesn't matter. But frequently the players make much different choices during RP combat contained within a larger roleplaying campaign than they would in one where it is simply a matter of "winning" such as Descent or Warhammer. So their tactical actions are readily influenced by their roleplaying in ways that a non-roleplaying game lacks. Further, even non-tactical role play often continues throughout combat. Interparty relationships and exchanges persist. If these things are cast aside in your game, then I would suggest you are missing out.

Bottom line remains that nothing in a piece of plastic or between the covers of any D&D book has the slightest ability to prevent a dedicated player from roleplaying their experiences both in and out of combat. And that is not an IME comment. That is purely a rational observation. I'm not disputing that other people have different experience. I am disputing that it is rational to claim these alternate experiences result from the game itself, as opposed to the people playing it.


This seems an interesting perspective and I wondered if their was any agreement, widespread agreement, or even universal agreement on his points.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Bottom line remains that nothing in a piece of plastic or between the covers of any D&D book has the slightest ability to prevent a dedicated player from roleplaying their experiences both in and out of combat. And that is not an IME comment. That is purely a rational observation. I'm not disputing that other people have different experience. I am disputing that it is rational to claim these alternate experiences result from the game itself, as opposed to the people playing it.

True. But, I would argue, misleading.

While it's certainly the case that nothing in a game book has the slightest ability to prevent roleplaying, it's just as true that some games, and some books, encourage and support such roleplaying more than others.

I think it's fair to say that, for instance, the current edition of the World of Darkness encourages IC roleplay more than the current edition of D&D. I'm not saying you can't role-play in D&D--I do twice a week--nor am I saying that one is a better game than the other. But the two rules sets very clearly have different objectives, and one focuses more on encouraging RP than the other.
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
Of course rules can't stop you from roleplaying if you want to. The notion that they can is preposterous.

A more productive topic, instead of a debate on whether or not is is possible, would be how to encourage roleplaying during combat and how to increase it during our games if that is what we want to do. That could improve our own experiences of the game and be quite productive.

EDIT - Here's one way to encourage roleplay during combat. Give a goal more than survival. If the PCs are trying to accomplish something more than killing the opposition while taking the least casualties, then they'll be more likely to interact with their environment, the NPCs, and each other. There are lots of options for this to be done.

If a DM wants more roleplay in their combats, and doesn't encourage it, and wonders why the PCs aren't roleplaying in the combat, it is the fault of the DM for not giving them an outlet for their roleplaying. It's like wondering why the PCs never interact with the NPCs when the NPCs are all named Bob and just answer the PCs' questions quickly, offering nothing of their own.

You have to engage people for them to roleplay if they aren't going to naturally pick up their own things; you have to give them something to roleplay about. It's a rare group of people, in my experience, that will just roleplay themselves with no added context to the environment around them. DMs generally know this and add in interesting locations, NPCs, and moral quandries into their adventures.

But, when the DM just says "Roll initiative" and immediately the game does turn into a skurmish fight to the death or die yourself game, then, well, the DM is getting exactly what he is asking for.
 
Last edited:

rounser

First Post
In my experience there is nothing to inhibit roleplaying during D&D combat.
As with many things in life, IMO it's neither a black nor white scenario; rules neither completely inhibit nor completely facilitate RP. Simply because it's theoretically possible in anything doesn't necessarily mean it actually happens in reality.

Rather, small differences in systems or play styles can create a night-and-day change in terms of what behaviour is encouraged or facilitated.
 

Mouseferatu said:
While it's certainly the case that nothing in a game book has the slightest ability to prevent roleplaying, it's just as true that some games, and some books, encourage and support such roleplaying more than others.

Mouseferatu saved me the trouble of composing my own response: what he said.
 

BryonD

Hero
Mouseferatu said:
True. But, I would argue, misleading.

While it's certainly the case that nothing in a game book has the slightest ability to prevent roleplaying, it's just as true that some games, and some books, encourage and support such roleplaying more than others.

I think it's fair to say that, for instance, the current edition of the World of Darkness encourages IC roleplay more than the current edition of D&D. I'm not saying you can't role-play in D&D--I do twice a week--nor am I saying that one is a better game than the other. But the two rules sets very clearly have different objectives, and one focuses more on encouraging RP than the other.

Well, I'll start by saying I think this reads a little different outside of the orginal context.
Also, I've played WoD a long time ago, but haven't even read the new stuff, so I can not speak to it. (Is Rob Hatch still around? I went to high school with him and played GURPS a fair amount with him way back when. Several of my old old WoD books were given to me from him. Anyway....)

Back on the point, the context was that one could roleplay in D&D until combat started and the minis on the table then had a causal effect of preventing continued roleplay.
I disagree.
 


I use Harnmaster rules to role-play intersteller cyborg-mecha fighting planitoid-sized alien intelligences.

joe b.
 
Last edited:

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I'd like to read some examples of what encourages roleplay (particularly during combat) in some people's opinions as opposed to what does not.
 

BryonD said:
Well, I'll start by saying I think this reads a little different outside of the orginal context.
Also, I've played WoD a long time ago, but haven't even read the new stuff, so I can not speak to it. (Is Rob Hatch still around? I went to high school with him and played GURPS a fair amount with him way back when. Several of my old old WoD books were given to me from him. Anyway....)

Back on the point, the context was that one could roleplay in D&D until combat started and the minis on the table then had a causal effect of preventing continued roleplay.
I disagree.

Ah. Well, not having seen the original context, the quote was all I had to go with. :)

Thing is, though, I've seen the "RP stops when minis hit the board" phenomenon. There are gamers--a lot of them, IME--who seem to go from "role-playing" to "tactical," and never the twain shall meet.

Whether that's primarily the fault of the minis, the rules, these particular gamers, or a combination thereof, I wouldn't dare hazard a guess. But it does happen, and it seems to happen a lot less--IME, again--without minis than with them.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top