Energy damage on Trip touch attack?

We've already made our in-game ruling, but I'd like your opinions.

Knowing that:

1. The weapon involved is a frost whip ("...A frost weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage on a successful hit...")

2. Trip starts with a melee touch attack.

If one hits with the melee touch attack, does the extra damage (1d6 of cold damage, in this case) happen?

Pro: It's an attack and you hit, right?
Con: You do no damage, so you do no extra damage.

So, what's the right answer per the RAW? Having answered that, what do you think the right answer SHOULD be?

I'll chime in with my opinion and what our in-game ruling was later, after getting some answers - I don't want to prejudice anyone one way or the other.

EDIT: Okay, to eliminate the whole real vs. subdual damage part it would help to know that this whip has admantine worked into the whip and deals real damage (it's a legendary weapon, but never mind that).

The fact that this is a whip is less important that the fact that it is a tripping weapon.

Do you remember the rather large and heated (no pun intended) debate about flaming whips? The real question is whether a frost whip deals frost nonlethal damage and whether anyone with an armor bonus of +1 takes any frost damage at all.

One thing, though, is that the rules on trip don't actually mention "hit". Does mean you're not touching them? No, it just means you may (or may not) be hitting them.

I think the right answer per the RAW and what it should be is no frost damage, whether you consider it nonlethal or not.

I was on the other side of that "heated" debate about flaming whips.

My final post in that thread (wherever it is- I can't search for it 'cause I'm cheap and don't have a supporter account) was pretty clear on why the magic damage should be considered seperate from the base whip damage.

I'll come back later and break it down once I have a chance to go look up the abilities in the DMG.

Actually, by brute force looking around, I found the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138686&page=1&pp=40

My post #336 is one of the later refinements of my side of the argument.

Infiniti2000 said:

Do you remember the rather large and heated (no pun intended) debate about flaming whips? The real question is whether a frost whip deals frost nonlethal damage and whether anyone with an armor bonus of +1 takes any frost damage at all.

One thing, though, is that the rules on trip don't actually mention "hit". Does mean you're not touching them? No, it just means you may (or may not) be hitting them.

I think the right answer per the RAW and what it should be is no frost damage, whether you consider it nonlethal or not.

Click to expand...

I agree 100% with your literal RAW interpretation.


However, I disagree with what should happen.

1) Trip attacks (being melee touch attacks) by definition mean that the weapon is touching the defender.

2) Energy weapons by definition do not harm the wielder which implies that they should harm anyone else touching them who is not the wielder.

3) Damage Reduction does not stop Energy damage. So, if the weapon hits/touches you but does not harm you (regardless of whether it did not harm you because it did not get through your DR or because it was used to trip you should be irrelevant), the energy damage still should harm you. Only Energy Resistance should stop Energy Damage (shy of other magic).

If the flaming (or cold) flail wraps around your legs (or shield, or arm, or chest, etc.) with a successful melee touch attack in a trip attempt, regardless of whether this actually trips you, should be no different than if it hits your leg, but your DR stopped the weapon damage (but not the energy damage).

However, this is a plausibility explanation based on what should happen (fire should burn), not what RAW indicates.

IMO.


I also think that if you place your Flaming Sword down on a stack of papers, they should catch fire. However, RAW doesn't indicate that this will happen either.

My gut says that the <crack> of the whip is what "activates" the energy damage, and only the tip of the whip can inflict that damage. Thus, no energy on a touch attack.

Bad Paper said:

My gut says that the <crack> of the whip is what "activates" the energy damage, and only the tip of the whip can inflict that damage. Thus, no energy on a touch attack.

Click to expand...

If you wrap the whip around someones leg, isnt the tip touching the leg too?

This is a tough call in my opinion but I believe that the evergy is seperate from the weapon damage itself. However the original post said "A frost weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage on a successful hit". To me, extra damage implies that there had to be damage in the first place. No whip damage, no extra damage.

Okay, to eliminate the whole real vs. subdual damage part it would help to know that this whip has admantine worked into the whip and deals real damage (it's a legendary weapon, but never mind that).

The fact that this is a whip is less important that the fact that it is a tripping weapon.

Goldmoon said:

If you wrap the whip around someones leg, isnt the tip touching the leg too?

This is a tough call in my opinion but I believe that the evergy is seperate from the weapon damage itself. However the original post said "A frost weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage on a successful hit". To me, extra damage implies that there had to be damage in the first place. No whip damage, no extra damage.

Click to expand...

Well, any damage is "extra" damage if you're tripping.

It says hit, and the description of a touch definitely defines what a "hit" is. A touch attack can either hit or miss.

The reason the whip shouldnt deal extra damage on first glance is the fact that if you have a flaming longsword you cannot just make a touch attack with the weapon basicly trying to bypass armor to deal damage.

IMO you have to roll high enough to "Hit" thru armor, magics and skill to beable to deal the extra damage.

So in this case if the "Whip" roll an attack and scored say 20 but need 18 to "Trip" but would need a 25 to hit normaly no damage no game. If they had rolled 25 or higher I'd give them the little extra juice for a good roll for the energy damge but no physical damge from the whip contact as its not lashing but raping around the leg.