Balancing the Warblade

First things first: I don't want to start a discussion here about whether or not the Warblade class (from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords) is balanced - there are plenty of threads discussing that in both the Rules and the General Discussion forum. If you feel the Warblade already is balanced that's fine, but please move on and don't post your feelings here.

Right, for those left (who obviously feel the Warblade *is* unbalanced), what are you doing in your games to balance it?

I'm thinking:

1. Change HD from d12 to d10. It's a fairly minor change, but the d12 HD is something I don't like anyway (it doesn't suit the flavour or tie into any class abilities, unlike the Barbarian or Knight), and gives the class an unnecessary (if slight) boost.
2. Reduce skill points to 2/level rather than 4/level. While some maneuvers reply on skills, the Warblade should only be focusing in one or two disciplines (and hence one or two key skills), and the fluff makes it clear they're pretty dedicated to glory and combat, and don't waste a lot of time on other persuits.
3. Require that they must follow the swift action to replenish maneuvers with a standard action (only) to attack or do nothing. The biggest change in terms of balancing the class, but one that hopefully will eliminate silliness like 3 full attacks every two rounds...

Thoughts?

I would go further on #3.

The swordsage (called by the book the master of maneuvers) can replenish 1 maneuver as a full round action while the warblade can replenish all of them as a swift action. This is the equivalent of giving a bard more spells per day than a sorcerer.

I think that allowing warblades to replenish 1 maneuver as a swift action taken as part of a standard action to attack or flourish would help a great deal, along with changes 1 & 2 above.

DC

DreamChaser said:

I would go further on #3.

The swordsage (called by the book the master of maneuvers) can replenish 1 maneuver as a full round action while the warblade can replenish all of them as a swift action. This is the equivalent of giving a bard more spells per day than a sorcerer.

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I hesitant to change this, because I like the "rules-flavour" that makes the warblade and swordsage feel different. The warblade has a relatively low number of readied maneuvers, but can replenish them more easily than the swordsage, whereas the swordsage has more readied maneuvers, but a harder time replenishing.

I kind of like that - it tends to make swordsgaes more versatile and give them a "bigger bag of tricks", while making warblades much more one trick ponies, that can repeat their one trick more often. I guess it'd be analagous to making the bard have more "spells known" but less "spells per day" than a sorceror... (Here I'm thinking that the bard and sword sage are both more generalist classes, while the sorceror and warblade are much more front-line oomph! classes).

Ideally I'd like to find a balancing point that tones down the warblade a bit, while still keeping that same "rules-flavour". Plus I'm just curious to see how other people think it can be balanced...

After thinking through this on my comparable post, I've decided I really like Alceste's comment that suggests the fully swordsage-style recovery: one maneuver as a full-round action. If you used that, and removed the warblade's silly ability to trade low-level maneuvers for higher-level ones, you'd get something that might be balanced, because the warblade really wouldn't be able to spam a bunch of high-level maneuvers, either.

I agree with you about skill points, though.

gribble said:

I hesitant to change this, because I like the "rules-flavour" that makes the warblade and swordsage feel different. The warblade has a relatively low number of readied maneuvers, but can replenish them more easily than the swordsage, whereas the swordsage has more readied maneuvers, but a harder time replenishing.

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The warblade's high base attack bonus, bonus feats, and special abilities make him a much more effective combatant when he's not using his maneuvers. This is probably sufficient for the different feel: the swordsage relies heavily on his bag of tricks, but the warblade is more of a generally skilled warrior who can bust a particularly fly move when he needs to.

comrade raoul said:

The warblade's high base attack bonus, bonus feats, and special abilities make him a much more effective combatant when he's not using his maneuvers. This is probably sufficient for the different feel: the swordsage relies heavily on his bag of tricks, but the warblade is more of a generally skilled warrior who can bust a particularly fly move when he needs to.

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Yeah, this is what my thinking was going towards. A warblade can be a very effective in combat without maneuvers using power attack and other standard fighter geats. The swordsage really needs maneuvers to be effective. Why is the warblade's recovery better again? This is the real problem area for warblades.

Regarding #1 and #2, the d12 is not really needed by the warblade but is relatively minor. Average 1 hp per level will not make a huge difference. For fighter types, most will have a decent/strong con anyway. Still I disagree with a d12 for an intelligence based fighter.

I will be very reluctant to change skill points. For one, it gives the warblade something to do in non-combat situations. Two, skills have little effect on combat for fighter types.

If you used that, and removed the warblade's silly ability to trade low-level maneuvers for higher-level ones, you'd get something that might be balanced, because the warblade really wouldn't be able to spam a bunch of high-level maneuvers, either.

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Heh. You'd better explain why that's silly, since it's fundamental to the way the system is balanced.

Your initator level is you level in the adept class, plus half of all your other levels. Under your rule, a Fighter 10/Warblade 10 would end up with quite a nice collection of high end maneuvers compared to the straight warblade.

It's one of those cases where messing with the system without understanding all of it can lead to odd results. Sure you could change the rest of the system too, but: If you think the warblade is overpowered, the three suggestions by gribbled sound quite good. For a simple fix, go with them, rather than mucking more directly with the martial adept mechanics. (There is nothing that says that you can't do that, but it'll be a lot more work.)

starwed said:

For a simple fix, go with them, rather than mucking more directly with the martial adept mechanics. (There is nothing that says that you can't do that, but it'll be a lot more work.)

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Yeah, and I guess I should have been clearer in my post: I like the maneuver system, and pretty much everything in the book, but feel the warblade is just a little bit too over the top. So this, in essence, was what I was aiming for - bringing the warblade back into line with other base classes (as someone mentioned on another thread, a good comparison class would be a psychic warrior from the psionics handbook, with d8 HD, I think low - maybe middling - skills, and 3/4 BAB...).

I specifically *don't* want to be monkeying around with maneuvers and the mechanics of how they work.

Alceste said:

I will be very reluctant to change skill points. For one, it gives the warblade something to do in non-combat situations. Two, skills have little effect on combat for fighter types.

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Why do you think this is desirable? I see the warblade as very much a front line fighter - an alternative to the fighter class (but not an automatic replacement because he's strictly superior - which is kind of the point of this thread). Why do you think a warblade should have something to do in non-combat situations when the fighter doesn't?

I think the main problem with the warblade is with its very existence. It is a class that fills the role of both fighter and barbarian, with no clear identity of its own. Warblades love battle. So do many barbarians and fighters, and probably some commoners too. It’s just not enough of a justification for a base class for me.

However, I like the idea of a fighter/barbarian type using the maneuvers and stances. That by itself is a good concept, and I want to make the Iron Heart discipline available to such a character as well.

I have dropped the warblade class, and collapsed the core functionality of it into level substitutions for the fighter and barbarian. I chose not to worry about the “Battle” abilities, or weapon aptitude. It hasn’t seen play yet, this is purely from my analysis of the class on paper, so I’m interested in feedback.

The Sublime Way

Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature as a fighter, you do not start with heavy armor or tower shield proficiency, and you do not gain a bonus feat at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels. A barbarian selecting this class feature does not gain fast movement, rage, or damage reduction.
Benefit: You begin the game with knowledge of 3 maneuvers and 1 stance chosen from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines.
Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it. A maneuver usable by fighters and barbarians is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.
You learn additional maneuvers and stances and may learn a new maneuver in place of an existing one as as a warblade of the same level (see the Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords).
You may recover all expended maneuvers with a standard action to attack or to do nothing more than a harmless flourish with your weapon.
At 20th level, you gain the ability to use two stances at the same time.
You may use any maneuvers, stances, feats, or items as a warblade of the same level.
Fighters using this option gain (4 + Int modifier) X 4 skills at 1st level, and 4 skill points + Int modifier at each addtional level.
Add the Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Martial Lore, and Tumble skills to your list of class skills.

Edited to make recovering maneuvers a little less easy than in the RAW, and to remove tower shield proficiency.
Edited to add key skills to the class skill list and to give the fighter more skill points when using this option.