combat question (my players stay out...)

OK,
I've never, ever had a combat in D&D with a hydra in any addition. I just got done looking at the 3.5 Hydra for a game this Thursday.

#1 Hydras have combat reflexes AND a note saying that "A hydra's Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity." Does that mean when a fighter (without improved sunder) tries to sunder a head ALL the heads get an attack? And up to twice a round? (Combat reflexes and a dex of 12). Or even trying to close with the body (due to the reach).

#2 Looking at a 6-headed one (CR 5) against my party I'm seeing TPK in the future for my 5th level (fairly optimized) party. The set-up is likely going to allow the hydra to close. Against an AC of 20 the expected damage from a full-attack is around 25 points of damage. If anyone provokes, it's another 25 points of damage that round. The party utterly lacks Will-save based attacks (Warlock 5, Warlock 4, Barb 1/Swordsage 4, Ranger 5), and I'm not sure there are any that a 5th level wizard (if they had one) would have that would be useful here. The party (at 4th level) has taken on ghosts and CR 7 undead. But one CR 5 hydra looks ugly. The warlocks can't sunder from range (not slashing damage) and the fast healing 16 is crazy good (plus 66 hps)

Help?

(I'm trying to run a module straight as written, so I'd rather not change the encounter unless folks think it's hopeless).

Mark

The big question is: do they know they are going to fight a hydra? If they can plan for it, they can equalize the battle a lot.

-Do they know *how* to kill a hydra? If they know about the fire/acid to keep it from regenning heads, that might help. A bit of research or visit from a friendly sage might go a long way there.

-Also, do they have access to anything that might slow down or distract some or all of the heads? I've been on an alchemy kick lately, so I'd probably run experiments with Stinging Smoke, Eggshell Bombs, Flash Pellets, or some sort of glue. Tripvine might work or something else to tangle or immobilize at least a few of them. It depends on how tactical-minded your party is and what they have access to.

-I might also look into poisons to put on arrows or other ways for the ranger to make a pest of himself from a distance, were I them. Or see if the warlocks can blast the ceiling or something else that would drop on the heads, something along those lines.

holy cow,
I just reviewed the sunder rules. The Hydra will be getting a +8 against a "head sunder" attack due to its size (assuming a medium person is doing the sundering). So the Hydra gets a +16 roll against the attack bonus of the person sundering (who will maybe have a +10). Sundering ain't a likely option. I guess it comes down to raw damage from the party. Given the AC, if they can close they have a chance.

Mark

If the party has the ability to do lots of damage in a few rounds, the fast healing almost doesn't enter into it and sundering the heads isn't even necessary.

MongooseFamiliar said:

The big question is: do they know they are going to fight a hydra? If they can plan for it, they can equalize the battle a lot.

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Nope, not a clue.

-Do they know *how* to kill a hydra? If they know about the fire/acid to keep it from regenning heads, that might help. A bit of research or visit from a friendly sage might go a long way there.

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Nope. And given the size rules for sundering (see my post above) I just don't see how this is even an option

-Also, do they have access to anything that might slow down or distract some or all of the heads? I've been on an alchemy kick lately, so I'd probably run experiments with Stinging Smoke, Eggshell Bombs, Flash Pellets, or some sort of glue. Tripvine might work or something else to tangle or immobilize at least a few of them. It depends on how tactical-minded your party is and what they have access to.

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They don't, to my knowledge, have anything like that.

-I might also look into poisons to put on arrows or other ways for the ranger to make a pest of himself from a distance, were I them. Or see if the warlocks can blast the ceiling or something else that would drop on the heads, something along those lines.

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The encounter is outdoors in a near-optimal situation for the hydra (which has a swim speed by the way).


Mark

3.5 Hydras were constructed to justify the Improved Sunder feat. The 'Behind the Curtain' sidebar states this.

That aside, you are correct that a hydra can attack with each head with an AoO. This breaks the usual "one attack per opportunity" rule.

So, hydras are nasty unless the party has specific feats or the ability to do massive damage from range and outpace its fast healing. Another option is ability score damage since its fast healing doesn't affect that. Since your party lacks artillery in the form of a wizard or sorcerer throwing fireball/lightning bolt, and both your melee fighters aren't high AC tanks, they are uniquely unqualified to fight a hydra.

I suggest giving them plenty of warning, letting them buy scrolls, poison, etc. to counter the threat.

Oh, one last thing: Hydras are DUMB. It should use no tactics other than charging and biting. Select targets simply by proximity and divide its attacks since it has no concept of focusing on a single threat (it has multiple heads after all, why just bite one target?) With fast healing, it probably won't even try to escape if its death is imminent. They are also slow, so a 30' movement rate character will always be able to stay at range.

Maybe he should be a 2 headed hydra, y'know battle scarred.

Hedgemage said:

3.5 Hydras were constructed to justify the Improved Sunder feat. The 'Behind the Curtain' sidebar states this.

That aside, you are correct that a hydra can attack with each head with an AoO. This breaks the usual "one attack per opportunity" rule.

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Yeah, that's how I read it too. Pretty tough.

So, hydras are nasty unless the party has specific feats or the ability to do massive damage from range and outpace its fast healing. Another option is ability score damage since its fast healing doesn't affect that. Since your party lacks artillery in the form of a wizard or sorcerer throwing fireball/lightning bolt, and both your melee fighters aren't high AC tanks, they are uniquely unqualified to fight a hydra.

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They can do fairly massive ranged damage. And the 4th level Warlock is actually a pretty good HtH fighter (DR 4/cold iron and hideous blow).

I suggest giving them plenty of warning, letting them buy scrolls, poison, etc. to counter the threat.

Oh, one last thing: Hydras are DUMB. It should use no tactics other than charging and biting. Select targets simply by proximity and divide its attacks since it has no concept of focusing on a single threat (it has multiple heads after all, why just bite one target?) With fast healing, it probably won't even try to escape if its death is imminent. They are also slow, so a 30' movement rate character will always be able to stay at range.

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The warning is unlikely, the encounter is designed as a pseudo-random encounter. I _hadn't_ noticed the int of 2. That will help. I was going to run it as way too smart. In fact the module's tactics for it are probably too bright. Running away may be a difficult option for the PCs. I need to figure out what the move rate of a hydra should be in swamp-like rough terrain. They hydra has a 20' land and swim speed, so I'm not sure what the swamp move rate should be....

Still not sure how this is a CR 5 monster. I don't think any 4 icons at 5th level could handle the fight, let alone use only 20% of their resources.

Mark

Btw, a simple well-placed Obscuring Mist spell negates AoOs as the PCs move in to attack.

brehobit said:

The warning is unlikely, the encounter is designed as a pseudo-random encounter. I _hadn't_ noticed the int of 2. That will help. I was going to run it as way too smart. In fact the module's tactics for it are probably too bright.

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No, a hydra is as smart as a wolf or an ape and smarter than a crocodile which have solid swamp hunting tactics. Now it is slightly less wise than most animals, possessing human level wisdom, so if the ambush predator tactics fail, it won’t swiftly fall back. What were the module's suggested tactics? Predators use thier territory to thier advantage.

The hydra should not divide it’s attacks up unless it is trying to find easy prey to bite. And it already knows that by whoever the pack{party] tries to protect. The heads converge on a potential meal till it drops and walk off with it. If you decide it can eat more than a medium creature in one sitting, then it might keep going, but it certainly won’t stand there to be shot up when it can launch its full attack and still move away into the water.

Crocodiles… lie mostly submerged in rivers or marshes, with only their eyes and nostrils showing, waiting for prey to come within reach… If it wins the grapple check, the crocodile establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom.