LA vs ECL

Ok, this is something that has always confused me. When you're making a new character, how do you determine what level the character comes in at? For example, let's take a Satyr (LA +2, 5 racial HD) and give it 5 levels of Bard. Is this character supposed to be in a party with the average character level of 12 or 7? If it belongs with the 12s, why don't they just clarify the whole thing and say the LA is +7? It's quite confusing, and I can see both justifications... I just want to know which one is the most correct. Or at least the most used.

As a side note, would the CR for such a creature be 12 or 7?

Personally, I would think that racial hit dice would add to the ECL for most purposes, but this type of character would be in the average party level 7 rather than 12, since a single 12th level character of just about any class could easily dispatch the creature. I'd say the same goes for most other class/race combinations I've seen.

La +2 and 5 racial hit dice means its ECL 7 before class levels.

So if you add 5 class levels and had a party of LA +0 characters, they'd have 12 class levels to the 5 for your character. Ick.

On the other hand, are there rules for *removing* racial hit dice? Say I wanted to play a satyr, but didn't want to deal with it's 5 racial hit dice. Is it possible to simply ignore the racial HD, skills, and feats? Basically, you'd be taking the rest of the race and making it a straight LA +2 creature and adding class levels. Seems like a better option to me. That way, characters could choose to take levels in their racial type (Fey, Outsider, Giant, etc) as they chose, and it would allow for greater versatility.

In fact, I just may be writing this up as a house rule... opinions anyone?

Seeten is of course correct. However, you're right to doubt the accuracy (or utility, perhaps) of ECL in certain instances. It's frequently all over the place in terms of balance, IMO.

One thing that still gets some people though, is that character level (CL) does not necessarily equal ECL (e.g., this satyr would be of character level 10, but ECL 12). Sorry if I'm not telling anyone anything new here; no offense intended.

Heh, my timing was a bit weird there.

re: your second post, muzick, LA is often (well, nearly always) reduced when racial hit dice are used as a secondary form of weakening. So no, LA +2 would no doubt be too little here.


edit --- hang on a sec, I'll go check out the satyr again. . .

muzick said:

So if you add 5 class levels and had a party of LA +0 characters, they'd have 12 class levels to the 5 for your character. Ick.

On the other hand, are there rules for *removing* racial hit dice? Say I wanted to play a satyr, but didn't want to deal with it's 5 racial hit dice. Is it possible to simply ignore the racial HD, skills, and feats? Basically, you'd be taking the rest of the race and making it a straight LA +2 creature and adding class levels. Seems like a better option to me. That way, characters could choose to take levels in their racial type (Fey, Outsider, Giant, etc) as they chose, and it would allow for greater versatility.

In fact, I just may be writing this up as a house rule... opinions anyone?

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That is correct. There is NO way to avoid the 5 racial levels. Savage Species is very specific on that.

I think its foolish, and silly, both, but thats the RAW. House Rule it how you like. the +2 LA is for the special abilities, the racial HD is for their "standard monster abilities" or whatever, so just be aware of what your pulling out.

muzick said:

LA vs ECL

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LA is Level Adjustment. It's a figure that represents the strength of your racial abilities that arn't tied to hit dice.

Racial Hit Dice are... well, racial hit dice. Levels in a creature type, essentially.

ECL is Effective Character Level. ECL is calculated by adding LA and Racial Hit Dice together, and then any class levels on top of that.

So for your example, a Satyr (5 RHD, +2 LA for a total ECL of 7 just for the race) Bard/5 would be a level 12 character. You could introduce the character as early as level 1 if you used the Savage Species progression for Satyr. If not, then the earliest he'd hit the table would be 7th level. It's important to note that racial hit dice are not optional. You've gotta take 'em all, and you have to complete them before you can start adding class levels.

Personally, I would think that racial hit dice would add to the ECL for most purposes, but this type of character would be in the average party level 7 rather than 12, since a single 12th level character of just about any class could easily dispatch the creature. I'd say the same goes for most other class/race combinations I've seen.

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Well this case is particularly weak. Satyrs are fey, which have notoriously bad HD, and then you're combining it with bard levels, which while appropriate, also require a certain means of handling for them to really shine. And losing 7 levels to racial features isn't the way to go about it.

muzick said:

Personally, I would think that racial hit dice would add to the ECL for most purposes, but this type of character would be in the average party level 7 rather than 12, since a single 12th level character of just about any class could easily dispatch the creature. I'd say the same goes for most other class/race combinations I've seen.

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Except for a drow :\

Well, thanks for the replies. I really don't think I like the way the system does this with the required racial levels and whatnot. So I'm starting a thread over in House Rules for a discussion on an alternative.

Unearthed Arcana has guidelines for removing LA's as a character advances. Basically, a character with an LA can "buy off" a +1 every so many levels, until he no longer has an ECL. This doesn't allow buying/removing racial HD.