Ur-priest (*sigh*) for antihero campaign.

Folks:

I'm embarrassed to be asking this, since (1) I'm supposed to be as much up on the rules as anyone; and (2) well, it's an Ur-Priest.

But.

We're supposed to design sick and wrong evil-oriented characters for an antihero campaign. (The concept is cool -- we're the heroes. Just not the good guys. Very "Invisibles" or "Darkness," if you know the comic books).

Can anyone give me an *elegant* Ur-Priest build. That is -- as core as is plausible; no Thought Bottling or reverse leveling. And I'd prefer not to lose the four levels of cleric. Wizard 5 / ___ / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge seems to be the preferred approach. But I can't find a legit class that gives the needed Fort saves, or the Bluff skill.

Chalk it up to me not having much time. And thanks in advance.

Rogue 1/ Wizard 3/ Ranger 1. Rogue first for the skill points, then wizard, then ranger.
You meet the qualifications, but you'll need a high int, you might be burning some skill points on cross-class skills.
And you risk multi-classing penalties.

Carpe DM said:

Folks:

I'm embarrassed to be asking this, since (1) I'm supposed to be as much up on the rules as anyone; and (2) well, it's an Ur-Priest.

But.

We're supposed to design sick and wrong evil-oriented characters for an antihero campaign. (The concept is cool -- we're the heroes. Just not the good guys. Very "Invisibles" or "Darkness," if you know the comic books).

Can anyone give me an *elegant* Ur-Priest build. That is -- as core as is plausible; no Thought Bottling or reverse leveling. And I'd prefer not to lose the four levels of cleric. Wizard 5 / ___ / Ur Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge seems to be the preferred approach. But I can't find a legit class that gives the needed Fort saves, or the Bluff skill.

Chalk it up to me not having much time. And thanks in advance.

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First be human and take the Able Learner feat so you don't burn double skill points for cross classed skills.

Try this:

1. First level: Ex-Paladin of freedom (from UA): You get bluff as a skill. You also get the fluff side of things as you are fallen when you become evil. Take Iron Will as your other 1st level feat. Paladin of freedom gets you the +2 fort save. The next levels get you to +3.

2. Then go 4 levels wizard and you should be able to meet the requirements to hit Ur-Priest at your 6th level. Take malign (evil) spell focus as your 3rd level feat.

I think you can also get there with Duskblade and Wizard but you have to prestige to mind bender to get bluff as a class skill.

The difficult part in all of this is to get the bluff skill up to the req.

Thanks,
Rich

BTW: I did the ex-paladin of freedom, wizard, ur-priest, mystic theurge and had an absolute blast. Took Vile Lightning bolt as one of my feats later on. You rarely if ever run out of spells. Got the character to 24th level before the campaign died.

Mindbender (Complete Arcane) has a good Fort save, and stacks with your Wizard levels. Requires Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive 4, Charm Person, Caster level 5th, gives Concentration, Knoweledge(All, individually), Spellcraft, Profession, Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate as class skills.

Expanding off of Jack Simth's suggestion is a build I played about a year ago:

Human Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Fatespinner 4

This nets you 9th level arcane and divine spells with some interesting fate manipulation at higher levels.

It's important to take into account the RAW wording of the Ur-Priest's caster level adjucation. That is, "add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half his levels in other spellcasting classes" would imply that only the actual class level(s) of the spellcasting class(es) apply, as opposed to the base class level and your +1 level of existing spellcasting class levels. Therefore, the above build has the following caster levels:

Arcane: 18 (5+1+8+4)
Divine: 12 (2+8+2)

This is why you take Practiced Spellcaster/Divine Spell Power.

Either way...just my 2 cp

hanniball said:

Expanding off of Jack Simth's suggestion is a build I played about a year ago:

Human Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Fatespinner 4

This nets you 9th level arcane and divine spells with some interesting fate manipulation at higher levels.

It's important to take into account the RAW wording of the Ur-Priest's caster level adjucation. That is, "add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half his levels in other spellcasting classes" would imply that only the actual class level(s) of the spellcasting class(es) apply, as opposed to the base class level and your +1 level of existing spellcasting class levels. Therefore, the above build has the following caster levels:

Arcane: 18 (5+1+8+4)
Divine: 12 (2+8+2)

Click to expand...

That is somewhat debateable.

Look at the wording on the Mystic Theurge spell advancement:

SRD said:

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

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(Emphasis added)

What would you get in terms of spells per day and caster level if you'd taken levels of Wizard, instead? A boost to your Ur-Priest caster level. Is your caster level part of "spells per day and caster level"? Technically.

Granted, that interpertation is very open to abuse, but is technically within the rules exactly as they're written.

Warlock can be an interesting choice instead of wizard, and it grants you most of the skills you need. I made a Warlock/Monk/Ur-Priest/Contemplentive once that I was quite fond of, although I never actually played him.

I had a player who parlayed levels of bard into ur-priest, but I don't remember the details. He seemed to work well.

Jack Simth said:

That is somewhat debateable.

Look at the wording on the Mystic Theurge spell advancement:

What would you get in terms of spells per day and caster level if you'd taken levels of Wizard, instead? A boost to your Ur-Priest caster level. Is your caster level part of "spells per day and caster level"? Technically.

Granted, that interpertation is very open to abuse, but is technically within the rules exactly as they're written.

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Ur-Priest references your level in another spellcasting class, not your caster level. Therefore, the enhanced Wizard casting granted by the Mystic Theurge does nothing for the Ur-Priest's caster level.

hanniball said:

Ur-Priest references your level in another spellcasting class, not your caster level. Therefore, the enhanced Wizard casting granted by the Mystic Theurge does nothing for the Ur-Priest's caster level.

Click to expand...

The Ur-Priest refferences your Ur-Preist caster level. Mystic Theurge increases your caster level (no reference to what class it increases your caster level in) as though you'd gained a level in the selected arcane spellcasting class.

Mind you, Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) wouldn't increase your Ur-Priest caster level, as it explicitly only applies to the chosen spellcasting class.

Granted, it's rather silly to count a level of one class 1.5 times for your caster level (1 for the divine side boost, 0.5 for the Arcane side boost) but it's not without precident; the Thrallherd, for instance (XPH, also in the SRD) counts Thrallherd levels twice when determining your Leadership score. The Chameleon PrC (Races of Destiny, also available as a Web Enhancement off of the Wizards of the Coast website) has a caster level of twice the PrC class level when using one of the two spellcasting focuses.