Arwend -- Social Class Rules

Wolv0rine

First Post
Since I'm parading pieces of Arwend around the forum here, I figured I'd trot this out too. Social Class is something from 1E that I feel is sorely missing, and I rather enjoy this take on it.
[Note, the following is cut n' pasted en toto from it's parent documents, so some personal notes may be present. And text enclosed in brackets, like this is, is meant as notes to myself while writing]

Social Class

Nearly everyone falls into a social class, be it by virtue of their income, their position, their vocation, or what not. From the poor to the obscenely wealthy, these levels of social affluence carry freedoms and responsibilities different from the others.
Characters from different social strata view each other with certain prejudices that color their interactions. A character dealing with another character of the same social status receives a +3 adjustment. This modifier drops by 1 for every social class difference between the characters.
Thus, a Poor character dealing with a Poor character will receive a +3 reaction adjustment; while a Poor character dealing with a Regal character will receive a –3 reaction adjustment. The seven social classes are as follows:
  • Poor: Peasants, farmers, laborers
  • Middle Class: Craftsmen, merchants, traders
  • Upper Class: Landed officials, military officers, affluent merchants
  • Titled: Baron/Baroness
  • Nobility: Count/Countess, Viscount/Viscountess
  • High Nobility: Duke/Duchess, Marquis/Marquise
  • Regality: Emperor/Empress, King/Queen, Prince/Princess
Characters who do not take a social class feat (see Chapter 3 -- Skills & Feats) at character generation fall into the Middle Class by default.
Those in the higher social classes are assumed to possess access to larger and more stable sources of income. These characters have a Wealth score in addition to any currency they carry on their person.
When making transactions taking place in a location that would logically be in a position to recognize such a thing, such characters may make a Wealth check instead of using currency. If the check is failed, the character is free to use any currency they may carry, but suffer a –1 penalty to reaction checks with whoever they were dealing with when the Wealth check failed.
A failed Wealth check does not necessarily mean that the character does not possess the required wealth (in the royal coffers, for a Regal character, for example). It may mean that their note of credit is unacceptable in a given place (i.e. in a small village, the local blacksmith may not feel he can enter the palace, or even make the trip, to collect on the note).

Social Class Feats

Social Class feats are a kind of Talent Feat. Unlike most other Talent Feats, however, social feats can be affected (and in some cases, negated or changed) in the course of gameplay. Doing so should only come after careful consideration however, as this threatens to nullify a precious feat taken by the player.
[Should the higher-class feats cost multiple feat slots?]

Poor (Talent)
You were born and raised in a poor family. Your social status is low, and your initial wealth is very limited, but you get along well with those of low status wherever you go.
Benefit: You receive a +4 to all Survival checks and any Craft checks to make simple tools (wheelbarrow, shovel, barrel, crude chair, etc), however your starting gold is halved.
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

Middle Class (Talent)
You are the child of a family of craftsmen or merchants. One or both of your parents are likely skilled in a craft and/or profession.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to any single Craft skill, and a +2 bonus to any single Profession skill.
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

Upper Class (Talent)
Your family has achieved a high level of social status and has access to a healthy influx of income. You were raised in the manner of a lesser noble.
The money and social skills you have learned tend to aid you in many situations.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Appraise checks, as well as all Cha-based skills. Finally, your starting Wealth is (5+ 1d6).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

Titled (Talent)
Your family hold a title granted by the nobility at some point. You have an ancestral manor or keep which overlooks a parcel of land owned and maintained by your family in the name of the nobility. This grants you a level of social status and wealth equal to a lesser noble.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Ride checks, and gain the Simple Weapons Proficiency feat, as well as all Cha-based skills. Finally, your starting Wealth is (10+ 1d6).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

Nobility (Talent)
You come from a noble family that still has lands and power. You are not directly in line to inherit, but you still have your upbringing, limited resources, and status.
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and Knowledge (etiquette) checks. You also always have a place to stay with your family and can ask other nobility to put you up for short times with a Diplomacy check with a DC of 15. Finally, your starting Wealth is (10 + 1d6).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

High Nobility (Talent)
You come from a noble family that still has lands and power. You are in line to inherit, and are expected to enter into the family politics and take your place when the time comes.
Benefit: You receive a +4 to all Diplomacy and Knowledge (etiquette) checks. You also always have a place to stay with your family and can ask other nobility to put you up for short times with a Diplomacy check with a DC of 15. Finally, your starting Wealth is (15 + 1d6).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

Regality (Talent)
You come from a royal family. You are not directly in line to inherit, but you still have your upbringing, considerable resources, and status.
Benefit: You receive a +6 to all Diplomacy and Knowledge (etiquette) checks. You also always have a place to stay with your family and can ask other nobility to put you up for short times with a Diplomacy check with a DC of 15. Finally, your starting Wealth is (15 + 1d10).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

High Regality (Talent)
You come from a royal family and are directly in line to inherit, you are expected to lay aside all other commitments and take your throne when the time comes.
Benefit: You receive a +8 to all Diplomacy and Knowledge (etiquette) checks. You also always have a place to stay with your family and can ask other nobility to put you up for short times with a Diplomacy check with a DC of 15. Finally, your starting Wealth is (20 + 1d10).
Special: You can only take this feat at character creation.

So, thoughts? Love/Hate from my fellow 1E carryovers? A few WTFs from post-1E gamers? It's all good. :)
 

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1. Whats the incentive of taking Poor or Middle Class as a feat?
2. Why wouldn't everyone take High Regality?

3. I like status rules in games and imc use a Influence mechanic worked as Cha bonus + Aristocrat Class* Level

*Aristocrat gets Leadership at level 1 but higher level cohorts are considered patrons rather than hirelings (ie the cohort might represent a former Tutor or uncle Bob the Lord Chamberlain

so everyone has Influence = Cha bonus (negative cha indicates low status/class), however they must take Aristocrat levels to increase it (thus trading off another PC class level to get the boost)

Influence IMC can be used like a wealth bonus (it represents how willing others are to do favours for you) and can also be used to represent 'extra helpers' when a skill is used (ie a bonus). *I also have a resource mangement system in which Influence represents 'labour units'

Influence can also be gained and lost through various actions
 

Tonguez said:
1. Whats the incentive of taking Poor or Middle Class as a feat?
2. Why wouldn't everyone take High Regality?
1) Well, there are really only 3 reasons I cas honestly think of to take teh Poor or Middle Class feats:
  • For the skill bonues that comes with them
  • To have a better chance of getting along with the everyday people one should often be likely to be walking among, especially at lower levels
  • For Role-Play reasons

2) Currently there's nothing to keep everyone from doing just that, DM adjucation aside. That's why the note in there wonders if the higher class feats should require multiple feat slots.

Tonguez said:
3. I like status rules in games and imc use a Influence mechanic worked as Cha bonus + Aristocrat Class* Level

*Aristocrat gets Leadership at level 1 but higher level cohorts are considered patrons rather than hirelings (ie the cohort might represent a former Tutor or uncle Bob the Lord Chamberlain

so everyone has Influence = Cha bonus (negative cha indicates low status/class), however they must take Aristocrat levels to increase it (thus trading off another PC class level to get the boost)

Influence IMC can be used like a wealth bonus (it represents how willing others are to do favours for you) and can also be used to represent 'extra helpers' when a skill is used (ie a bonus). *I also have a resource mangement system in which Influence represents 'labour units'

Influence can also be gained and lost through various actions
Hmm, the biggest problems I can see with that system are;
1) 'Influence' as a name implies something one supposes that PCs will aquire as they adventure (Influence, as opposed to connections be they monetary or political). Granted this is very minor.
2) This assumes that those with levels in the Aristocrat class aren't pompus arses (while I wouldn't imply they should all be, or even most, some inevitably are, and it looks like this system eliminates that possibility by giving them all influence boosts by merit of their levels). Again, this isn't huge.

It's not a bad system you've got working, it's simple and obviously gets done what you want it to do. What you want it to do isn't exactly what this system is trying to accomplish though (although it does brush against some of it).

I am looking for ways to push players toward the lower end, of course, because everyone can't be royalty. And if they can't swing (or can't justify the expense of) the higher Social Class feats and don't want to go for the lower class feats, there is that section that says that any character without a SC feat automatically falls into Middle Class. I figured that was marginally fair to give if someone didn't want to blow a feat, but I wanted the system to be in use. But yes, I do want to find a good way that fits in to make the higher SC feats less accessable.
 

Why do 'Upper Class' and 'Titled' proviede +4 to *all* Cha based skills, but 'Nobility' and higher only gain the bonus to Diplomacy and KN(Etiquette)?

Why do 'Upper Class' and 'Titled' recieve +4 skill bonuses and 'Nobility' only +2?

On that note, why do 'Upper Class' and 'Titled' gain a bonus on Use Magic Device at all?
 

Wolv0rine said:
1) Well, there are really only 3 reasons I cas honestly think of to take teh Poor or Middle Class feats:
  • For the skill bonues that comes with them
  • To have a better chance of getting along with the everyday people one should often be likely to be walking among, especially at lower levels
  • For Role-Play reasons

2) Currently there's nothing to keep everyone from doing just that, DM adjucation aside. That's why the note in there wonders if the higher class feats should require multiple feat slots.


1. The problem is that every feat gives skill bonuses but only the high status ones give wealth (your poor feat even takes half your players gold) This is not a good trade off!
What is required is more incentives for low status to be take and a way of 'balancing' the wealth bonus.

a. Let everyone be able to make a wealth check but poor characters do this at a penalty. Also bonuses for all status levels at a total of +4

b. You need to consider some Drawbacks that might affect characters from each Status and use this to balance things out.

c. Below are the feats re drafted based on Benefit: skill bonus (+4 total), Wealth (max) and Drawback

Lower Class (Talent)
You were born and raised in a poor family and needed to learn a variety of skills to survive. Your social status is low, and your initial wealth is very limited, but you get along well with those of low status wherever you go.

Benefit: All skills that can be used untrained are class skills and you receive a +4 bonus to survival checks
Wealth max -4
Darwback: none

Middle Class (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus to any single Craft skill, and a +2 bonus to any single Profession skill.
Wealth max +0
Drawback: none

Upper Class (Talent)
The money and social skills you have learned tend to aid you in many situations.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Appraise checks
Wealth max +11
Drawback:You are required to give 10% of any gold you receive to the local authorities as taxes and tribute

Titled (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Ride checks,
Wealth max +16
Favours DC 15.
Drawback: You have obligations to the nobility which requires you to give service at least once a year. If someone of regal status or higher is present then you are honour bound to protect them even if you yourself are endangered by that act.

Nobility (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and +2 Knowledge (etiquette) checks.
Wealth max +16
Favours DC 15.
Drawback:um

High Nobility (Talent)
For Benefits and Favours this works out identifcal to Nobility but with higher wealth(+21) personally I'd just scrap it and stick with Nobility. Otherwise think up some onerous drawback

Regality
Pre req High Nobility (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and +2 Knowledge (etiquette) checks (stacks with High Nobility for +4 bonus).
Wealth max +25
Favours DC 15.
Drawback: um

* personally I'd remove High Regality (reserving it as NPC only). Otherwise use 3 feats (ie Regality is a prereq to High Regality)



Hmm, the biggest problems I can see with that system are;
1) 'Influence' as a name implies something one supposes that PCs will aquire as they adventure (Influence, as opposed to connections be they monetary or political). Granted this is very minor.
2) This assumes that those with levels in the Aristocrat class aren't pompus arses (while I wouldn't imply they should all be, or even most, some inevitably are, and it looks like this system eliminates that possibility by giving them all influence boosts by merit of their levels). Again, this isn't huge.

IMC Aristocrat is shorthand for 'hero' (in the classical sense think Jason, Perseus, Hercules, Gilgamesh, Maui etc) so Influence is 'Mana' and something which can be 'sensed' (I even have magic weapons that only activate if the weilder has enough influence to charge it). I also assumed that influence is something that can be held by bullying and intimidation as much as it is through diplomacy so the pompous ass is a possibility...
 
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Pyrex: I honestly don't remember why Nobility and higher don't gain the benefit to all CHA-based skills. Probably a clumsy early attempt at balance. Where do you see them getting Use Magic Device??

Tongues: Not ignoring your input, just haven't had time to give it the reading and think-through it deserves.
 

Wolv0rine said:
Pyrex: I honestly don't remember why Nobility and higher don't gain the benefit to all CHA-based skills. Probably a clumsy early attempt at balance. Where do you see them getting Use Magic Device??

Upper-Class grants "a +4 bonus to all Appraise checks, as well as all Cha-based skills."

UMD is a Cha-based skill.

Ergo, Upper-Class grants +4 to UMD...
 

Pyrex said:
Upper-Class grants "a +4 bonus to all Appraise checks, as well as all Cha-based skills."

UMD is a Cha-based skill.

Ergo, Upper-Class grants +4 to UMD...
Frell, I suspected that might be what you were getting at. (Why would UMD be a cha-based skill anyway???).
Honestly, I'm not nearly as happy with the SC feats as I was when I finished them. Probably, I suspect, because I no longer have the relief of having finally finished them. :)
So yeah, you've got suggestions fire 'em away. The SC rules and feats were meant to be inter-supporting, not non-sensical. heh

Which brings me to my next post, RE Tongues...
 

Tonguez said:
1. The problem is that every feat gives skill bonuses but only the high status ones give wealth (your poor feat even takes half your players gold) This is not a good trade off!
What is required is more incentives for low status to be take and a way of 'balancing' the wealth bonus.

a. Let everyone be able to make a wealth check but poor characters do this at a penalty. Also bonuses for all status levels at a total of +4
Well, the problem with that is that giving the higher level SCs a Wealth check is meant to represent to the resources available to such characters in coffers and credit. These are character whose families are rich, and thus they stand a chance to be able to write a letter of credit and have it be honored, or something similar. Joe the Farmer has no chance of making a Wealth check ever in his whole life, and even Poul the Candlemaker probably isn’t likely to save up the kind of resources that it’d take to get himself a Wealth check. It’s kind of a back-up perk for being really rich. The off-shot is, it may not work, and if you try to make a Wealth check and blow it, your reaction mod is going to suffer for it.

Tonguez said:
b. You need to consider some Drawbacks that might affect characters from each Status and use this to balance things out.
Well yeah, I agree…

Tonguez said:
c. Below are the feats re drafted based on Benefit: skill bonus (+4 total), Wealth (max) and Drawback

Lower Class (Talent)
You were born and raised in a poor family and needed to learn a variety of skills to survive. Your social status is low, and your initial wealth is very limited, but you get along well with those of low status wherever you go.

Benefit: All skills that can be used untrained are class skills and you receive a +4 bonus to survival checks
Wealth max -4
Drawback: none
Hmm, I like the untrained skills thing. I’m not sure, however, if that really goes far toward the way the poor of the age were capable such a wide variety of things just to survive. Thatch a roof, make a bed, make a broom, build a firepit, build a simple house, mend and sew simple clothing, plough a field, milk the cows/goats, etc. The halved starting gold (since I can’t give the non-wealthy a Wealth check) both makes the Poor, well Poor, but is also meant to be offset primarily by the all-around competency (but not mastery) of the Poor. They start with little, but they know how to make it work for them. I don’t think we’ve quite got it right either way yet, but we’re moving.

Tonguez said:
Middle Class (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus to any single Craft skill, and a +2 bonus to any single Profession skill.
Wealth max +0
Drawback: none
*nods* Just cutting me back from +4 bonuses, eh? Hehe Well, maybe it was a bit much… :)

Tonguez said:
Upper Class (Talent)
The money and social skills you have learned tend to aid you in many situations.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Appraise checks
Wealth max +11
Drawback:You are required to give 10% of any gold you receive to the local authorities as taxes and tribute
Hmm, the tax thing isn’t bad. This is the level when you should start getting a wealth check, but one has to define it because the setting the system’s made for Does use a number of parts of D20 Modern (Reputation, Defense Bonus, Action Points, & Starting Occupation) it doesn’t by default use Wealth. That’s why I listed it as an equation (5 + 1d6 for Upper Class) instead of a bonus (+11).

Tonguez said:
Titled (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus to all Ride checks,
Wealth max +16
Favours DC 15.
Drawback: You have obligations to the nobility which requires you to give service at least once a year. If someone of regal status or higher is present then you are honour bound to protect them even if you yourself are endangered by that act.
Hmm, I understand taking out the “All CHA-Based skills” (Pyrex pointed out the huge flaw in that idea, although it really was a clumsy way of doing what I was trying for) but I’m not sure why you took out the Simple Weapons Prof. gimmie. Most characters get SWP anyway, and I added it mostly thinking that Titled characters would likely be the offspring of knights or the like, the type that would be expected to have some skill in a conscriptable area.
The drawback’s nice, I like it.

Tonguez said:
Nobility (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and +2 Knowledge (etiquette) checks.
Wealth max +16
Favours DC 15.
Drawback:um
How’s this…
Nobility (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and +2 Knowledge (etiquette) checks.
Wealth: 10+1d6
Favours DC: 15 (This is interesting, but it’d have to be defined more. It opens up the possibility of, and indeed implies, a Favours mechanic. I may have to work on that some)
Drawback: Your family does not approve the adventuring life, as it reflects badly on them (in the eyes of the higher classes). Adventuring characters are seen as something of an embarrassment and are treated with less respect than non-adventuring characters of this social level.

Tonguez said:
High Nobility (Talent)
For Benefits and Favours this works out identifcal to Nobility but with higher wealth(+21) personally I'd just scrap it and stick with Nobility. Otherwise think up some onerous drawback
Hmm, the difference between Nobility and High Nobility is High Nobility IS in line to inherit, and as such they are expected to have the limitations of someone who is in line to inherit placed upon them. They are expected to take an active hand in their family’s dealings and politics, and don’t have the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want, unlike most adventurers. Granted, I didn’t do a very good job of putting that into the original feat…

Tonguez said:
Regality
Pre req High Nobility (Talent)
Benefit: You receive a +2 to all Diplomacy and +2 Knowledge (etiquette) checks (stacks with High Nobility for +4 bonus).
Wealth max +25
Favours DC 15.
Drawback: um
Okay, there are some problems here. First, if you give it a prereq of High Nobility then that means that you have to blow 2 feats at 1st level to get it. While I don’t think that’s necessarily the worst thing, that Does mean that only Humans will be able to do it.
And while I think that making the high-level SC feats cost more slots IS a good way to help balance them, I also hate the idea that someone would be taking them past 1st level, because these are background feats. You can’t suddenly wake up at 3rd level (or whatever, my PH has been in a box since before Thanksgiving, so I can’t recall offhand when you get a feat… it’s been awhile.) and “Hey, did you know my family’s Royalty? Oh yeah, I’m the 4th son, so I’m not likely to get the crown or anything, but…”
I mean I suppose you could do that and just have it be something that “never came up before”… but it just seems really off.
The big drawback of Nobility/High Nobility/Regality/High Regality is really supposed to be that you’re not quite your own person at that level. You have familial and political obligations on where you go and what you do and when. I didn’t define that too much because I didn’t want to handcuff anyone (player or DM) too much by what I thought that should be.

Tonguez said:
* personally I'd remove High Regality (reserving it as NPC only). Otherwise use 3 feats (ie Regality is a prereq to High Regality)
Yeah, High Regality pretty much means you’re in line for the throne (possibly the direct heir), and that means that that throne has control of you. I’m not really sure how to make that tough enough for it to remain a good PC-allowable feat at this stage. As short as this thread’s been it’s managed to make me wonder about a few things I did here. I still want to get this to work, I think if it does it stands to add something to the game that it’s lost.
 

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