Guns as a touch attack?

I've been thinking about how guns are going to work in the HB setting I am working on. I want to set them apart from bows and crossbows, which if I remember correctly they aren't too different in d20 modern, and I hit on the idea of making them ranged touch attacks. This appears to give them the power that they had during their historical ascendence, namely making armor redundant. Of course this makes guns very powerful when compared to other weapon types.

To counter this I figured making all guns exotic weapons, plus a high cost might be sufficient. Perhaps even giving guns a straight -2 to hit, early guns being inaccurate.

Meatboy said:

I've been thinking about how guns are going to work in the HB setting I am working on. I want to set them apart from bows and crossbows, which if I remember correctly they aren't too different in d20 modern, and I hit on the idea of making them ranged touch attacks. This appears to give them the power that they had during their historical ascendence, namely making armor redundant. Of course this makes guns very powerful when compared to other weapon types.

To counter this I figured making all guns exotic weapons, plus a high cost might be sufficient. Perhaps even giving guns a straight -2 to hit, early guns being inaccurate.

Click to expand...

Maybe make it a -4 to hit, but make the damage open ended?

I'd add another kind of AC. "Gun AC" just like "touch AC" would be for a specific type of attack.

You'd have plenty of armor that would actually help, too -- magical giant spidersilk could easily be superior to kevlar.

- - -

Alternately, you could go with an armor-as-DR set of rules, and have each material have different penetration properties. So some bullets would easily penetrate fullplate, but not spidersilk vests; while a battleaxe would easily cut into a vest, but dink off of fullplate.

Cheers, -- N

Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Reload = Full Round Action
-2 to hit
Touch attack

Sounds good to me (and by "good" I mean that it portrays how special guns are when compared to crossbows and bows, not that they are "far too good")

Meh, I don't like making guns into touch attacks. Why in the Nine Hells do my Bracers of Armor +6 not stop a bullet, when they can sometimes deflect a boulder hurled by a giant? Why does a dragon's hide, tougher than any steel, and granting +30 natural armor or somesuch, prove completely useless in protecting it from guns? Do guns shoot holes through a titan's suit of three-inch-thick +5 adamantine full plate armor?

(quick edit: this means, in other words, that the houserule you're considering would result in armies of rookies being equipped with guns, and then killing dragons rather quickly since there is no reliance on magic, allowing lots of rookie soldiers to be equipped with mass-produced weapons that pierce dragonhide like paper; and dragons have such abysmal AC from mediocre Dex and nasty size penalties that a rookie has no problem hitting them with a mere touch attack.)

I'd understand a little armor-penetrating quality, but not ignoring or significantly reducing the effectiveness of every dang thing around. If they're going to be touch attacks, they may as well ignore object hardness too, and any creature's damage reduction, since they apparently blow holes through anything they hit as though it were a wet sheet of paper. :\ And if they're that bloody powerful, they may as well be one-hit kill shots any time they score a critical, since they'll obviously put a gaping hole through the heart, kidneys, lungs, brain, throat, major arteries, or whatever other critical hit location they manage to strike.

Maybe just reduce the amount of armor bonus granted by 1/2, except for certain specific materials.

javcs said:

Maybe just reduce the amount of armor bonus granted by 1/2, except for certain specific materials.

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Yeah, that, or reduce the armor bonus by a static number. Each kind of gun--or, better yet, ammo type--could have an armor penetration rating.

As for limitations on such a useful weapon, I've always liked the Iron Kingdoms take: Reloading isn't merely slow, but actually requires a skill check.

GreatLemur said:

Yeah, that, or reduce the armor bonus by a static number. Each kind of gun--or, better yet, ammo type--could have an armor penetration rating.

As for limitations on such a useful weapon, I've always liked the Iron Kingdoms take: Reloading isn't merely slow, but actually requires a skill check.

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I am not sure about the skill check but the idea of a set penetration rating is definitely intriguing.

@ Arkhandus
Yeah I have been really worried about this for those exact reasons. Though the thought of a few hundred soldiers armed with muskets taking on a dragon sounds pretty cool to me.

I'd also go with set AP (armour-piercing, or whatever) values for certain weapons/ammo.

I already do that, though guns are not a feature in any campaign that I am running / have run. Certain missile weapons though, yep, and some specialised real-world medieval/other AP-type melee gear too.

But I do use armour as DR (and a ton of other house rules), so I'm not sure whether my opinion is relevant here.

Meatboy said:

I've been thinking about how guns are going to work in the HB setting I am working on. I want to set them apart from bows and crossbows, which if I remember correctly they aren't too different in d20 modern, and I hit on the idea of making them ranged touch attacks. This appears to give them the power that they had during their historical ascendence, namely making armor redundant. Of course this makes guns very powerful when compared to other weapon types.

To counter this I figured making all guns exotic weapons, plus a high cost might be sufficient. Perhaps even giving guns a straight -2 to hit, early guns being inaccurate.

Click to expand...

What you are looking to simulate is very similar to the longbow against armor. The British destroyed the French knights at Agincourt because the arrows fired by the British longbowmen penetrated French armor...we're talking full plate.

If you do it for guns, you'll need to do it for arrows and crossbows as well...if you want to keep everything even. Really skews combat in my opinion.

You could try armor as damage reduction from UA and use the damage as listed for the guns from D20 Modern.

thanks,
Rich